Nelson Mandela - the terrorist turned peacemaker

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Brendan, you know I adore you, but you're being a bit of a prick here. Calm down, apologise, then teach us.

Just because we didn't grow up there doesn't mean we can't have a perspective, even if it's misinformed or seen through colonial spectacles.

You have a captive audience, treat us gently and with respect - we will respond.

[brum]

Brendan, whilst agreeing with your point that we are an island folk with an island mentality, I can't agree with your rant aimed at individuals who, as far as I can see, have simply contributed to the debate.

[Brendan]

Balls

[*Bob*]

arrogant

dismissive

defensive

tick - tick - tick

I'll leave you to it on this one.

[KidKruger]

Drawing Room material.

[The Chair]

Not until it becomes a bit more civilised it's not.

[Brendan]

Prejudice

Self-righteous

c@nt

tick-tick-tick

[giggirl]

Brendan, I appreciate you have strong feelings on this subject and, like PGC, I think you're a really terrific guy, but there's no need to be high handed.

I for one am interested in any Fianna Fail comparison, which I think is what prompted Mic Mac to start this thread, because I've watched the changing fortunes of Adams/McGuinness over the years, as many of us have. I would prefer this thread not to turn into a shouting match.

[*Bob*]

I don't mind when people I'm not bovvered about behave like knobs for no real reason but it's disheartening when people I do like do it.

So I can't really be arsed.

Hopefully the the thread can continue in a useful manner.. presumably so long as nobody who isn't in possession of 100% of the facts and a South African passport dares to offer any words on the matter.

Good luck.

[Brendan]

Yeah sorry Brum, PGC, Giggirl if I?ve offended you. I was by no means saying that someone?s nationality precludes them from having an opinion or indeed being capable of an informed opinion. I was specifically saying that using the perspective of your life and what goes on around you to form an opinion on something happening halfway across the world is silly at best and downright insulting at worst. *bob*?s specific snide tone when doing so just anoyed me no end. Even though I suspect that when it comes down to it we probably share the same feelings on the matter.

If you look back through the post I posted a reply to Mick?s original question of why Mandela is held in such high esteem in SA.

I wouldn?t for a moment try to comment on how it would apply to N Ireland though as I don?t know the people or the situation.

[Brendan]

Unfortunately I don?t actually have a valid South Africa passport so I could just be making this shit up.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Serious topics can exist in the lounge btw. The drawing room was created for people who wanted to start a topic without the desire to have every other post be some flippant, crude remark. I think Mick mac prefers the lounge because if the volume if traffic. It's up to him where this thread sits

Brendan is passionate about this and fair play to him. But instinctively I'm with Mick on this (at a broad level anyway)

however much at war or aggrieved one party is, does killing and maiming innocent people ever have enough reason. Not that that question should be limited to Mandela, Adams or mcguinnes obviously. But how these events and stories are consumed and through what filters largely dictates our acceptance of them

[giggirl]

Brendan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Have you ever had to flee a township where you were

> doing charity work and caught the stench of

> someone being necklaced on the wind?

Brendan, I have no idea at all but if it had happened to me I would probably wake up screaming about it for the rest of my life and would probably be really intolerent towards anyone giving an opinion I thought was half baked.

[Brendan]

Well it?s less to do with shit like that (which you expect to deal with when you get yourself into situations like that and shouldn't be used as an excuse for bad behaviour) and more to do with people forming opinions, about a place a people that I feel protective over, based on fundamental misunderstandings and dubious information.

[SimonM]

Wow....the only cliche not (yet?) resuscitated is that one about black South Africans being "like children really, not capable of running the country". That was a South African favourite back in the 1970's, although not one used by my college tutor, who had been forced to leave SA after being imprisoned there for anti-partheid campaigning...

[Brendan]

Noy quite sure what you mean by that Simon.

[Mick Mac]

Biographical details of Nelson Mandela

(Its from the ANC website btw so no guarantee of its objectivity but interesting none the less)

[mothernature]

I am told Nelson Mandela's wife was involved in football.Nasty.

[Brendan]

Getting back to Mick?s original point on why Mandela is universally seen as a hero despite his involvement in the armed struggle. I think it is because the guy was willing (along with people like Buthelezi and De Klerk) and strong enough to seize a moment, that may never have come again, to leave the past behind and make a positive future rather than settle old scores.

He quite literally saved a country from self destructing.

Furthermore after the fact he kept his nose out the trough which distinguished him from other African leaders of the time.

Here?s some overly sentimental guff I wrote about him over a year ago.

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,140009,140009#msg-140009

So I suppose the question with N Ireland is, do its leaders, regardless of their past, have the will and leadership to take things forward to a degree where angry cynics like myself will gush over their efforts?

[SimonM]

Simon, You actually don?t know what the @#$%& you?re talking about.

Perhaps you could go and explain to the parents of the 6 year old girl in my class who was blown to pieces in a Saturday morning bomb in the Wimpy back in ?84 that they shouldn?t be so upset as she was really just an electricity pylon.

This comment is absurd at so many levels as far as Mandela is concerned, and I would just have let it if pass, had it not been for

But unless you actually know what you are talking about or have a proper perspective on South Africa its history and peoples* rather just keep quiet.

I suppose, as ways of crushing dissent South Arican-style go, being bullied to silence simply for holding a different view, from a different perspective, on an a cossetted internet forum is preferable then to "clumsily fall" from a high window in Police HQ like Steve Biko did. (A cheap shot I know, but I did not drag this down into the gutter)

A "proper perspective"? What could that possibly be I wonder??

Originally I was trying to address terms like "criminal" and "terrorist". Mandela was a criminal in the way the American revolutionaries and the French Resistance were "criminal". It may seem obvious, but a "criminal" is someone who breaks a law, and laws are made by governments. But where the "government" is demonstrably a minority, white supremacist, repugnant and generally anathma to the *civilised* world the term "criminal" becomes largely irrelevant.

Noy quite sure what you mean by that Simon

.

Why does this not surprise me?

To understand why Mandela is admired and respected, for one thing you only just to need to look at the "statesmen" who have lined up with him on the world stage over the decades - both Bushes, Thatcher, Blair, Mugabe, Gaddafi etc etc...Rightly or wrongly these and others all seem to ooze with self-serving hypocrisy of various types and degrees. None of them "suffered" in prison for their beliefs and on largely trumped-up charges...

edited to correct a really really stupid error!

[Mick Mac]

Mandela is universally seen as a hero despite his involvement in the armed struggle. I think it is because the guy was willing (along with people like Buthelezi and De Klerk) and strong enough to seize a moment, that may never have come again, to leave the past behind and make a positive future rather than settle old scores.

I think that is a very noble statement Brendan.

I would suggest that De Klerk was the person making the big step. The ANC, Mandela and the world in general may have made the De Klerk step a seamingly unavoidable one, but many a leader would have held out for another decade or more before reconciling.

Mandela led the movement out of oppression and the ANC and its terrorist/military wing attracted the world's attention to the shortcomings in south africa. Black Africa made a very big sacrifice. But also at the end of the day, the guy in control needs to make a big concession and risk losing his political future, De Klerk did this.

In northern ireland terms DeKlerk would be David Trimble - who I admire trmendously - he took the big step in northern ireland of speaking to terrorists - he was the first to do so and a lot of the current reconciliation in NI has to do with him. John Hume put Trimble and Adams together to sort out their differences. All three are to be admired.

[steveo]

Apparently, BOSS used to employ the Richardsons to do some of their dirty work in London, in return for allowing the brothers to smuggle diamonds out of SA inside frozen fish (according to London Babylon)

[Brendan]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> I would suggest that De Klerk was the person

> making the big step. The ANC, Mandela and the

> world in general may have made the De Klerk step a

> seamingly unavoidable one, but many a leader would

> have held out for another decade or more before

> reconciling.

>

> Mandela led the movement out of oppression and the

> ANC and its terrorist/military wing attracted the

> world's attention to the shortcomings in south

> africa. Black Africa made a very big sacrifice.

> But also at the end of the day, the guy in control

> needs to make a big concession and risk losing his

> political future, De Klerk did this.

Interesting point Mick (If I can go off topic) and I suppose it is why De Klerk is also seen in a positive light even though, like Mandela, he was head of an organisation that had an armed wing that was busy killing people at the time.

While I don?t think his hand was forced completely the alternatives all involved more military and more violence. Apart from the obvious pressure domestically from organisations like the ANC and (what would have then been) ?white? opposition parties there was also a growing lack of will in general amongst the population to continue with a nasty, bloody war that was always bubbling under the surface. It had been a couple of generations and the reason it was put in place in the first place were less and less relevant.

The cold war had also recently ended and America no longer needed SA to supply the minerals for its weapons and fight communism in Africa so that particular rug of support had also been pulled out from under them.

So I think De Klerk?s choice at the time was a very sensible one as well as brave.

I was still a teenager when this was going on but that was the feeling I got.

[Brendan]

steveo Wrote:

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> Apparently, BOSS used to employ the Richardsons to

> do some of their dirty work in London, in return

> for allowing the brothers to smuggle diamonds out

> of SA inside frozen fish (according to London

> Babylon)

Secret agents and gangsters. Ok now I have to read it.