Looking after granny

[Cassius]

Baroness Deech, one of Britain?s most influential family lawyers and chairwoman of the Bar Standards Board, said last week that we should be duty-bound to look after our parents in their old age. ?In return for all that grandparents do, should there not be an obligation to keep them, and to keep parents, and reciprocate the care that was given by them to children and grandchildren in their youth?? she said. She also pointed out that grandparents provided free childcare.

What do you think of this. Should we be 'duty-bound' to look after our parents? Does this not ignore the fact that not all parents are paragons? Will Shannon Matthews feel like looking after Karen Matthews after the way she was treated? And what about those who have had abusive parents?

Surely if you love your parents and feel able to look after them, then the very fact that it is a legal obligation and not a loving gesture takes something away from it?

I can also see that the main burden will fall on the woman - no matter whose parents they are. My step-mother aged at least 10 years in that many months whilst she looked after my incontinent grandfather whilst his son (my father) did nothing or little to help.

What do you think?

[KidKruger]

It's a slightly broad brush she has used, it would not be sensible where there is a relationship issue or the parties just don't know each other, whether for geographical reasons or, say, a family split.

However, I think there should be a trend back towards extended families in houses, where feasible and the parties get on.

It could be one small step towards the slow repair of our society.

My Grandfather of 97 is cared for by several aunts/uncles and dozens of grandchildren when he could so easily have been deposited in a state-run old people's home, to wither and die. He is a very fortunate man.

But it does not suit all families. Deeches comments are making many assumptions, I'm surprised she was so 'black and white' about it.

Cannot be an obligation and would be impossible to enforce, both from the logistical aspect of enforcement and the resource limitation of the 'obliged carers' ie. size of property, stairs, time to commit to caring as opposed to working to pay the mortgage. What IS a shame is the pittance that full-time family carers receive from Govt.

[silverfox]

In general I agree with Baroness Deech. The obligation to look after parents should fall on the family and not on the state and social services. Obviously this can take many forms and doesn't necessarily mean moving granny into your house.

Where the state does have to intervene then property/possessions should be sold to recoup the costs. Families can't expect to reap the benefits of inheritance if they abrogate their responsibilites of looking after those who brought us into the world.

[????]

It's just a quote and so hard to see the context but yes looks very simplistic. Fairly ageist and patronising too in that many older people who may need some form of supervision and help with mobility etc are still well cpably both financially and mentally to make their own choices and I suspect many would opt for a 'home' or sheltered accom. than family for all sorts of reasons. I also like the assumption that grandparents have helped with grandchildren as if that's a universal truth - again may have been the context.

I also thought state care was now actually means tetsed anyway so the 'estate' of the elderley would, if neceessary be sold to pay? Maybe wrong.

My suspicion is that it's another realisation that our public sector's going to go bust without some radical changes.

[Brendan]

silverfox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>The obligation to look after parents should fall on

> the family and not on the state and social

> services. Obviously this can take many forms and

> doesn't necessarily mean moving granny into your

> house.

Fine by me. It's what I will be doing anyway. But I will only be happy to see the state cut one of the services it already provides if it is reflected by a similar, proportionate reduction in the tax I pay.

[SteveT]

Granny's tend to live much longer when they live with a family.

The advantages are that you can get great yorkshire puddings and excellent pastry on pies when grans around, provided they are like my grand mother.

They are also a valued source of home help, and it saves the offspring becoming 'latch-key' kids.

[womanofdulwich]

what about grandpas? aren't they just moody old men with no cooking skills and have an opinion on everything that is not going to change? what do they bring to the party?

A lot of older men worked and their wives did not. they do not have the skills to look after themselves- washing, cleaning etc. I blame their wives for not training them in retirement.

[KidKruger]

Grandad tell front-line war stories.

And don't care are about sweeping behind the fridge.

[Magpie]

Womanofdulwich - how can you post such sexist rubbish - I am shocked!!!!

Any grandad who was old enough for national service is more than capable of cooking, cleaning, and generally looking afterthemselves. Plus they are far more likely to be able to do DIY than the current stock of menfolk.

I recommend that families sans-parents sweep the streets looking for Grannys/grandads to steal (or adopt if you prefer to keep things above board)

[womanofdulwich]

Magpie I am speaking from personal experience. A father in law that lives on fried food or ready meals. We are about to inherit a generation of grandads who were not in the war and did not do national service. I am sorry to say. My dad is 84 and he is great- but father in law is 80 and absolutely hopeless. I really don't think there are that many 80 year old men out there that can help. Their wives generally stayed at home or did small part time jobs and all the housework. They may be able to do a bit of DIY and garden I admit, but I was really replying to Steve's post. I am so determined not to let my partner be that useless- or my sons!!

But seriously don't grandads have quite fixed views - esp. v immigration, corporal punishment etc that I find it hard to bite my lip!!

[Magpie]

My personal experience about the capabilities of elderly men are pretty different than yours, and anyway national service stopped in 1963 (I think) - any man above the age of 65 would have experienced it.

And sure Grandads have fixed views, but then so do teenagers, twenty and thirty somethings, and the middle aged.

Anyway wasn't looking for an argument more making the point that there may be significant advantages of having elderly parents around the place

[womanofdulwich]

I guess it just depends on who they are!! I work with a Hindu who lives with mum dad and granny and would not have it any other way. When/if he has kids, he has it all lined up for childcare-mind you his Dad smokes 40 a day and I can see that might be an issue!!

YOu sound very lucky with yours. I find continual ranting about various ethnic minorities hard to take-especially with teenagers present- but at least he is in Glasgow( hence the fry ups). I must ask him about his national service though- unless being epileptic means he did not do it?

[SteveT]

womanofdulwich wrote:- I am so determined not to let my partner be that useless- or my sons!!

I am afraid that it's not up to you, diy skills are obtained by working as or with tradesmen, everyone I left school with had to buy a kit of tools.

Now they leave school with '0's and 'A's and sit in front of a screen at work.

Hardly the picture you were painting for your offspring.

When I left school I was expected to "get a trade" which no-one could take away from you, and if I had any other ambitions they took a poor second place.

I was always in the top 4 or 5 at woodwork and metalwork without trying too hard. It seemed an inevitability that I would end up working with my hands as I was not interested in further education, I wanted money, and working in a paid job seemed the way forward.

My buddy who retired a couple of years ago, recently tiled the bathroom for his daughter and son in law, the soninlaw played football whilst the job was being completed.

He works in insurance and has little or no practical skills. So my buddy ended up bailing them out.

I have several such stories I could recount of retiree's shoring up their ham-fisted offspring.

[SteveT]

womanofdulwich wrote:-

But seriously don't grandads have quite fixed views - esp. v immigration, corporal punishment etc that I find it hard to bite my lip!!

Yes Grand-parents are grumpy old men and women, they always have been, but they do have other more positive sides. Telling stories about my childhood and youth are guaranteed to keep children spellbound.

Knowledge of the way of life of bygone days cannot be bought.

Grans stories were better than grandads.

My mothers were better than my fathers.

My children thought my droning on about life in the fifties and sixties more interesting than their mothers, who had a life through school and university and very few stories of urchin street life.

[Pugwash]

Having cared for a great aunt who lived in the same house worked well but when she became more frail she resented that I and my husband worked full time and could not meet all her needs. She agreed to have personal care from social services in the morning and we helped out at night. Carer also did hot meal for her at lunch time. When she became frailer still she opted to go into care at The Elms in Barry Road, where she lived for 2 years until her death.

My Mum is now 86 and frail with kidney failure and 3 times pw dialysis. She lives a couple of miles away and although we do her laundry, pay bills, take her shopping and are called out in emergencies, we are restricted through time and other family responsibilities to do more. Neither I or my mother would want to live with each other, unless she has a seperate granny flat, as we have such different life styles. We enjoy having people popping in and ringing us up - Mum hates this cannot understand why we are 'people persons' and involved in our community. She is a loner and happy to sit around in dressing gown all day. She moans about not being able to get out to the shops, to the hairdressers, yet when you suggest alternatives i.e. home hairdresser, befriending service who could wheel her to hairdressers during the working week,she does not want to know.

I believe families do have some responsibility for their parents/grandparents but this depends very much on personalities and relationships. Most older people end up in care due to their physical environment - you do not want a town house with rooms over many levels when you rely on a zimmer frame to get around, or being restricted to a micro environment as you cannot climb a short flight of stairs to bed or loo. I have long criticised the planning system which allows flats and houses for singletons/families but property developers do not think that wheel chair accessible flats. or new build properties with lifts are needed in ED. The only private Sheltered Housing Scheme is Dulwich Mead in Half Moon Lane, and the only council SHU is Lew Evans House in Underhill Road. We need to campaign for more SHUs and Older Person's accommodation in East Dulwich. This will help retain older people's independence longer, protect their savings,and still allow those families who can help out during the week, but not have a parent live with them, to do so without feeling guilty.

[steveo]

No one tells you when you're born that you'll have this bloody cross to bear later in life. I never got on with my mother. Now she's in dementia care at the rate of three grand a month and I'm all she's got. Bye bye inheritance. She raised me for about fifteen years I reckon and I'll probably have had to look after her for twenty. I'll be off to Indignitas before I inflict that on my own kids

[SteveT]

SteveO wrote:- I'll be off to Indignitas before I inflict that on my own kids

Wait until that time arrives, life is sweet at any age.

[Sue]

My daughter has made it quite clear she does not intend to look after me when I'm old :))

ETA: Older ....

[steveo]

Steve T: If I wait until that time arrives, I won't know the way to Switzerland

Sue: That's my point, she'll have no choice

The big squeeze on care home costs that is coming up will result in lots of dead grannies - smothered by desperate relations. They won't be after gran's money, just trying to keep their own

[SteveT]

steveo wrote:- If I wait until that time arrives, I won't know the way to Switzerland

Don't worry, your offspring will see that you get there okay.

[Pugwash]

If there is a property involved and granny/grandad needs to go into care - if they live alone - they can request from their social services office, a deferred payment. This is where if the person needs (and is eligible by the social services eligibility criteria and has an Assessment of Need) to go into care, has no savings over ?25.000, granny/grandad can request assistance from their local social services office - 12 weeks disregard - this is a government initiative which allows local SSD to assist 12 weeks care home costs (to the SSD maximum rates)out of the weekly income of the home owner. During that 12 weeks, home owner can apply for Deferred Payments. If agreed local SSD will place a legal charge on property so that any money paid out by local council can be recouperated on either death of home owner or by sale of property.

[newcomer]

There shouldn't be a legal obligation to look after grandparents, but there is a moral obligation.

In my view, the moral obligation still exists even when it doesn't seem 'fair'. In other words, it applies even if the grandparents fail to provide any babysitting whatsoever, where the burden unfairly falls on the women rather than the men, where the relatives are parents-in-law rather than being blood-related and/or when your siblings aren't pulling their weight in sharing the responsibility. It also applies when the grandparents suffer from dementia or similar problems and are horrible to you (although I completely appreciate how difficult this can be and how unrewarding it may seem at the time). And it even applies when the cost of their care is 'using up' your inheritence (Steveo..).

In other words, I believe that looking after one's parents is simply the right and proper thing to do, however well or badly you think they've treated you. This is of course a general principle and it would be understandable if Shannon Matthews didn't feel like caring for Karen Matthews. But this is an exception rather than the rule.

In this country, we seem to have forgotten family responsibility and respect for our elders. It makes me angry and sad when I hear of old people who are lonely and struggling, despite having sons and daughters.

[steveo]

Don't preach to me Newcomer unless you have personal experience

[womanofdulwich]

In a perfect world newcomer you are right. but i left home as soon as i could as i could not stand my parents views on everything. I still find more than 48 hours enough. My father hates London and will not come here- despite offers to collect him etc. There is no way he would live here. There is no way I will drag my family to live in Norfolk.( other than 4 weekends a year) I do not think he would be happy living with us - if it came to it- nor would he expect it.

If my family were the kind that came and helped when their grandchildren were young and we were in and out of each others lives then I would feel more obliged, but they did not. I think it all depends on the family and in 2010 it is wrong to think we are all close families that can live together. If you can that is great , but we all have different families and relationships with parents/children. Newcomer says "however badly they have treated you". I think you are unrealistic.

[newcomer]

I agree that I'm probably being unrealistic in a modern-day London society. But the original post did ask for views, and my own view (and personal experience) is that although it can be horribly difficult to look after elderly relatives it is my "responsibility" as a relative to do so.

When she was alive, my greataunt's dementia meant that it was often extremely difficult to feel any great affection for her (for example, she wrongly accused everyone of 'stealing' from her, trying to poison her, etc and was verbally and physically abusive to both her family and daycare staff). But since she didn't have any children of her own, it was up to my mother and I (her niece and greatniece) to take turns to visit on a daily basis, clean bedpans, negotiate with irrate daycare staff who were (understandably) fed up with the treatment she gave them, etc. We received no money from her when she died- in fact, my mother funded her care for the last year or so - and we expected none. I had barely known her in her 'pre-dementia' days and so I was not caring for her to return any sort of favour. Don't get me wrong- I'm not asking for some sort of medal or pat on the head - I'm just saying that elder-care can sometimes be the 'right' thing to do even when there is no chance of any 'return' to the carer (such as free childcare, inheritance, or even gratitude).

If she wasn't family, we would never have done it. But, since she was family, I simply don't see how we could have done anything else. Of course, it is naturally more difficult if the relative doesn't live in the same town - or even the same country - and I do realise that some of my more sweeping comments in my original post (like 'however well or badly you think they've treated you') are controversial private views and are probably not shared by everyone. It's for this reason that I would disagree with any sort of legal obligation or other centrally-imposed compulsion to look after one's relatives.

Steveo, I'm not trying to preach, and I do empathise with anyone caring for a relative with mental issues like dementia, but your post did (probably unintentionally) sound a bit flippant/mercenary when you talked about 'Bye bye inheritence' and Indignitas. I was simply reacting to that, and I didn't mean to cause any offence. I don't pretend that someone taking on a care-burden like you have done with your mother is always going to feel particularly cheerful about it so I shouldn't have picked out your name specifically.