Proposed 10km new double yellow lines across Dulwich

[rendelharris]

Really old chap, you must control your strange fantasy where you appear to know everything about how I conduct myself on the road. I overtake on the outside of traffic when it's stationary and when there is no oncoming traffic. If there is I wait my turn with the car drivers, at my age and state of fitness the breather's always welcome.

[rupert james]

You sound like a very sound chap.

Welcome to Bellenden Village

[BrandNewGuy]

I'm in two minds about these damn yellow lines. Yes, it's difficult to get sightlines when some idiot parks right on the corner, but remove parking from all corners and some idiot (possibly the same one who parks on corners) cuts said corners horrendously to the point of driving right towards oncoming traffic, but relying on it being a relatively quiet residential street that no-one is likely to be coming. I've been in the situation along our road countless times.

[rendelharris]

Lived in this area for twenty years, thanks, but a welcome is always nice, if late. Tell me, are you going to make any contribution to the subject under discussion or just continue to make a series of rather leaden, strained, unamusing attempts at putdowns? Just curious.

[rupert james]

After living in the area for almost 70 years starting just up the road from Ruskin Park House on Champion Hill. I have rather given up on all the changes that are continually raised. Dont know how I and friends ever managed to stay alive and even fit in now.

Some of the comments I see on this forum only make me chuckle. Real life seems to have passed them by.

[rendelharris]

I suspect in the 'fifties traffic volumes were somewhat different? I lived in Ruskin Park House for the last ten years, I would guess in your day it was safe for a small child to cross to the park unaided? Certainly wouldn't risk allowing it now, given the number of 40mph+ motorcyclists and cars screaming off the lights and up round the bend (and yes, irresponsible cyclists barrelling down the hill and through the red lights). In an age of massively incresed traffic volume, population density, infinitely more powerful motorcars and, I'm sorry to say, more aggression and less courtesy, we need calming measures such as (properly policed) 20MPH zones if we want the rising generations to experience anything like your childhood. Yes, these measures would have been absurd in your day; now they're essential unless we want to become an increasingly trapped indoors, only travelling by car, getting ever more obese populace.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Any update on the outcome of the meeting last night ?

[madger]

rupert james Wrote:

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> I suspect if the traffic has stopped you do not

> wait in line behind these stopped vehicles but

> edge dangerously up the inside path.

Rupert James why are you being so combative? It's a bit bullying! This guy is making perfectly sensible statements of fact and there's no need for you to be so passive aggressive and make mean assumptions about him. I don't understand why there's so much of that on this forum... People taking snide pops at strangers under the cloak of anonymity, when mostly people are just trying to have an engaging, constructive conversation. It's not funny enough to be banter, it just seems like an excuse to vent some frustration on anyone.

[wulfhound]

Couldn't agree more, rendelharris.

There are a lot of genuine advantages todays' kids have. Reliably warm homes, safe vaccination against a dozen common diseases, food shortages mostly unheard of, historically low crime rates, access to the sum total of human knowledge at their fingertips.

But the amount of independence they've lost is a crying shame.

Even the Mail, not known as a haven of progressive liberal bleeding-heart-ness gets it..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-children-lost-right-roam-generations.html

Yes, these measures would have been absurd in your day; now they're essential unless we want to become an increasingly trapped indoors, only travelling by car, getting ever more obese populace.

Spot on. It's a great pity that so many people who did enjoy these freedoms seem to be so unsympathetic about what their grandchildrens' generation is missing out on, and why.

[Charlie Smith]

This item had a lot of interest at last nights Dulwich Community Council meeting. I said that I did recognise there were some junctions within the East Dulwich ward that would need the installation of double yellow lines. A good example would be the junction at Dunstan's Road and Goodrich Road which is adjacent to Goodrich School, has eight drop kerbs which are often blocked by parked cars in the mornings and afternoons which makes it almost impossible for parents to cross the road with their children and prams. This situation is dangerous for pedestrians having to peer out between the parked vehicles.

Therefore it would be appropriate to look at all of the junctions on a case by case basis. Other Councillors argued in the same vein recognising that some junctions may require yellow lines if they are busy or near schools etc.

It was agreed by the Councillors present at the meeting (unfortunately Councillor Barber was not present) to hold talks with officers to look at this again.

Councillor Charlie Smith

East Dulwich Ward Member

[Lowlander]

rupert james Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> After living in the area for almost 70 years

> starting just up the road from Ruskin Park House

> on Champion Hill. I have rather given up on all

> the changes that are continually raised. Dont know

> how I and friends ever managed to stay alive and

> even fit in now.

>

> Some of the comments I see on this forum only make

> me chuckle. Real life seems to have passed them

> by.

Hurrah! Let's all go back to the great smogs of the 1950s and embrace coal fires, unfiltered petrol/diesel engines and rudimentary health care, when life expectancy was lower and infant mortality was higher. To the devil with progress :-)

[pr5ined]

so is it going to happen? any way for this to be stopped?

[richard tudor]

Lowlander Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rupert james Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > After living in the area for almost 70 years

> > starting just up the road from Ruskin Park

> House

> > on Champion Hill. I have rather given up on all

> > the changes that are continually raised. Dont

> know

> > how I and friends ever managed to stay alive

> and

> > even fit in now.

> >

> > Some of the comments I see on this forum only

> make

> > me chuckle. Real life seems to have passed them

> > by.

>

>

> Hurrah! Let's all go back to the great smogs of

> the 1950s and embrace coal fires, unfiltered

> petrol/diesel engines and rudimentary health care,

> when life expectancy was lower and infant

> mortality was higher. To the devil with progress

> :-)

What has this to do with double yellow lines

[James Barber]

The decision last night confirmed by fellow Cllr Rosie Shimell was that the decision is deferred to the next meeting when officers and the Cabinet Councillor responsible attends.

It appears that all Dulwich councillors yesterday received emails asking for a re think. This thread probably helped to create this. Thank you to those who have helped create this postponement. It is an opportunity to get the proposed madness changed to reflect local conditions.

All other parts of Southeatk have had this done to them removing thousands of car parking spaces.

[pr5ined]

Hi James

Is there an email list available so that we can further issue emails to all councillors and relevant cabinet members re this proposal?

Cheers

[Scootingover]

pr5ined Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi James

>

> Is there an email list available so that we can

> further issue emails to all councillors and

> relevant cabinet members re this proposal?

pr5ined,

Active Cllr support on this came from Helen Hayes (who described the proposals as a sledgehammer to crack a nut), Andy Simmons, Michael Mitchell and chair Jon Hartley. Helen clearly a good point of contact as both local Cllr and MP.

EMAIL to Helen Hayes, MP for Dulwich and West Norwood and Councillors:

[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]

There is an earlier and separate thread on this matter. See Dulwich Community Council:

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,1649080

This current thread from JB smacks of political/self interest. What we want is all our Cllrs to understand that this is a real and concerning issue and work individually to determine where double yellow lines are warranted vs gratuitous.

Contact them all - don't put your eggs in any self-promotional basket.

[uncleglen]

If they implement it does that mean employing more traffic enforcement vehicles? ffs

[Ampersand]

.

[James Barber]

Hi uncle glen,

clearly if you have more double yellow lines you have more area to patrol.

HiScootingover,

Starting a thread to ask people to attend a meeting I couldn't attend that affects the area. That would be strange political self interest indeed.

This concept has been implemented across the borough as it is the current administrations policy. They deferred the decision until the next community council.

In parallel they have a consultation to remove traffic decisions from community councils. If this had been proposed after May we wouldn't have heard about it until much later when it would be even harder to stop.

[MarkT]

Thanks Cllr Charlie Smith for your post re the Community Council meeting.

You say: "It was agreed by the Councillors present at the meeting to hold talks with officers to look at this again."

It would be nice to know if that was also agreed by the officers.

MarkT

[Growlybear]

I'm confused about the objections to the yellow lines. All parking restrictions in the Highway Code are enforceable, and it is very clear that you can't park within 10 metres from a junction. So why would it make a difference if yellow lines are painted on the roads at junctions? You're not permitted to park near junctions - yellow lines are not needed to enforce this.

[rendelharris]

I think (and I'm quite prepared to stand corrected) that part of the Highway Code (rule 243) comes under the "advice" remit, i.e. it says "DO NOT", whereas the rules either side of it say "YOU MUST NOT." You can only get a ticket if the enforcement officer deems you to have parked in a dangerous and/or obstructive manner, whereas with a yellow line obviously you'll get a ticket regardlesss. I agree with the central premise of your point though, which is that people shouldn't be doing it anyway, it's like driving straight through a junction on the grounds that there isn't a stop sign there, no matter what safety, common sense and common courtesy (should) dictate.

[James Barber]

10m is a quiet 20mph street is a sufficient space to park what 2 1/2 cars. I doubt many people would think it dangerous to park within 10m.

The argument give by the council is that 10m is required to ensure adequate sight lines to reduce crashes. But the crash data for the unction proposed is close to zero. The guidance is for junction that when written would likely have had high speed limits than 20mph.

It's a silly excessive proposal taking no account of local circumstances or all council policies. What's particularly sad is that it's been implemented across the borough and it's only because Dulwich residents are more vocal that we've this temporary reprieve.

[rendelharris]

As I said before, James, the key is if those speed limits are being observed. In my long experience of walking and cycling round ED and environs, they virtually never are. If they could be more properly policed and enforced, perhaps it would be safe to park closer to junctions. However, you should bear in mind that the stopping distance for a small car from 20MPH in good conditions is 12 metres; if a driver is approaching a junction at 20MPH and parked cars only allow him/her a 5 metre sightline of what may be emerging, if someone does pull out recklesssly it will be too late to stop.

[mockingbird]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 10m is a quiet 20mph street is a sufficient space

> to park what 2 1/2 cars. I doubt many people would

> think it dangerous to park within 10m.

>

> The argument give by the council is that 10m is

> required to ensure adequate sight lines to reduce

> crashes. But the crash data for the unction

> proposed is close to zero. The guidance is for

> junction that when written would likely have had

> high speed limits than 20mph.

>

> It's a silly excessive proposal taking no account

> of local circumstances or all council policies.

> What's particularly sad is that it's been

> implemented across the borough and it's only

> because Dulwich residents are more vocal that

> we've this temporary reprieve.

James

agree. The Highway Code is guidance and is reinforced with legal remedies as appropriate. The Dbl Yellow line proposal would have bypassed scrutiny and is wrong on many levels. As presented in the agenda docs to DCC, the 'bulk' proposal (for those that take time to read it) does propose 7.5m rather than 10m. But it is still the 'sledgehammer' to crack a nut, which our MP Helen Hayes coined clearly on Tues eve in her feedback to Southwark. For those unfamiliar with interpretation and common practice for the application of the Highway Code, lengths under 10m are permitted and 'any' length of double line under 10m that provides adequate clearance of the junction should be considered. It is a case by case judgement.

As Matt Hill (Southwark Public Realm) said on Tues eve at the DCC, this was a cost effective and convenient way for 'Southwark' to drive through generic Southwark policy - with no health check as to its effectiveness at individual junctions or the totality of impact. Come on Southwark, really?? Budget constraints on consultation costs, time to review etc, yes, we get that in a heartbeat. Blinkered and robotic policy taken straight to implementation without due consideration of local impacts, or transparency - then you are out of bounds. Who needs or wants a Council that operates like this?

James - you are on message and I hope that other Councillors also stand up for sensible and warranted measures and stop the erosion of our environment and community with such OTT proposals for double yellow lines.

Charlie - also thank you to you. You seem to be advocating common sense and not policy by rote.