Inequality in Britain

[DJKillaQueen]

We had peacemeal work in this country in the past and men worked themselves to death while their families starved (whilst the mine owners and industrialists got rich). Fortunately employment laws came in to end that practice. Most employers are in business to make as much profit as possible but that should never be at the total expense of fair pay. If you want to see what happens when employees have no legal minimum protection in employment then go to India or any similar country and see the rooms full of ten year olds working 12 hour days for pennies.

[Odyssey]

I think we have moved on from the days of "I'm Alright Jack".

Margaret Thatcher more of less killed off the unions in the 80s. Nowadays there are much more balanced and equitable employment laws.

More on the film.

[Odyssey]

To those of you who have not seen I'm All Right Jack, I'd thoroughly recommend that you do so because it depicts (albeit exaggerated) what management and the trade unions get up to. It is extremely entertaining as well as informative.

[Jeremy]

It's a popular myth that investment banks and hedge funds provide no value to society.

What happens when a company wants to raise cash by selling stock or bonds? Or if that's too far removed from everyday life - who do you think is responsible for looking after your pension fund?

I'm obviously not suggesting that it's a selfless task, or that widespread 7-figure salaries are justified... but the companies exist for a reason, i.e. people want to use their services. Not to mention the huge number of people employed in the sector, most of whom are just regular wage-slaves on relatively normal salaries.

Those people suggesting that we need to compete with China and India in manufacturing are missing the point entirely - unless they want to volunteer to work in a factory soldering circuit boards for ?10 a day.

[Ladymuck]

> Or if that's too far

> removed from everyday life - who do you think is

> responsible for looking after your pension fund?

All I know is that, despite having paid into various pension schemes all my working life, I have very little to show for it. As things stand at present, I may as well have kept the dosh under the mattress!

[Odyssey]

Saw this today.

[????]

mmm big dilemma there Ody.....Guardianistas gonna have to agree with Daily Mail

[david_carnell]

Daily Mail in accurate reporting of scientific journal that doesn't talk about cancer shock.

[Odyssey]

NOT from the Daily Mail:

higher proportion of children in Wales quoted as living "in severe poverty compared to the rest of the UK". The percentage of children living like this rises to 20% in Blaenau Gwent (South Wales).

[Ridgley]

This is something I have always known, there are children living in poverty and this is not just because parents cannot be bothered to work. There are some families that do work but only living on minimum wage when I was at school there where some children only had a descent hot meal when they came to school this is not new I think poverty can be over shadowed by other issues because people think we live in a rich country and poor families have a roof over there heads and running water from the tape you not considered poor but there are different types of poverty.

This does need to be addressed but because of the cuts and changes in our benefit system the families that need help may suffer.

[legalbeagle]

I'd be fascinated to hear a convincing explanation on this. There are well rehearsed arguments about gender inequality and pay vis a vis employees - but CONTRACTORS?

http://www.workingmums.co.uk/working-mums-magazine/news/1719666/report-shows-gender-pay-gap-for-womencontractors.thtml

[Huguenot]

It doesn't state that the comparison is like-for-like.

The CMI survey is quite clear that it was for equivalent jobs, but the Parasol survey only mentions 'averages'. If the boys are doing deep-sea diving on oil rigs, and the girls are doing data-entry that may account for it.

Aside from that I don't really have first hand knowledge - most of my bosses and senior executives have been women, and there was certainly no complaint from these stong-willed women that there was a gender gap in pay.

[Odyssey]

> and there was

> certainly no complaint from these stong-willed

> women that there was a gender gap in pay.

Ah...

[aspidistra]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It doesn't state that the comparison is

> like-for-like.

>

> The CMI survey is quite clear that it was for

> equivalent jobs, but the Parasol survey only

> mentions 'averages'. If the boys are doing

> deep-sea diving on oil rigs, and the girls are

> doing data-entry that may account for it.

>

Parasol is an umbrella company was founded by an IT contractor and a large proportion of contractors who work through it are in IT-related roles. As for quite a few umbrellas, many of which were founded at the time of IR35.

A contractor used for data entry? 'Girls'?

There is role differentiation: more of the developer, network engineer etc. roles are filled by men, more of the project management, interaction design, research and so on roles by women, with business analysis and similar being more of a mix. In principle, the theoretical (advertised) rates are not massively different (though rates might spike in particular skills when clients are desperate and there's nobody to do it: so you'll get offered ?750+ a day just because they can't find anyone with that set of skills).

However, rates for a role is where the action is: men are more pushy on rates, and there is often a rate range. A man might demand 600 plus hotel and meals and expenses, where a woman might settle for 400 or 450 (for the same role). The guy is taking a gamble on client desperation, and that he won't get turned down owing to his high rate demand/the rate being out of budget.

[mockney piers]

"where a woman might settle for ..."

Really?

As an IT permy type (with some contract experience) in various industries, public and private, the women I meet in contracting/consultancy are generally pushier than the men.

Missus Mockers for starters scares the bejeezus out of those she works with!!

[Odyssey]

I find the circumstances which have led to the bridging of the gender gap in Lesotho very interesting. See this.

[Huguenot]

I half expected somebody was going to go ninny on me about my use of the word 'girls', but as soon as I had the thought I dismissed the idea that anyone would be so petty. Clearly there are further depths to be plumbed.

Please note through the fug of your pompous righteousness that I also referred to boys. They were used as affectionate diminutives.

Odyssey, these were highflying media types running newspapers and radio stations that you see and hear every day. I don't think they were fainting violets.

I think generalisations that the men are more pushy than the women are typical of the gender discrimination that 'women' are complaining about. Certainly if men expect highwer salaries, then that confidence will impact upon the negotiating confidence and have a corresponding outcome.

It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Either way, since we don't know the other variables included in the parasol study, it's impossible to draw any conclusions at all. It's just a headline grabber.

I don't think Lesotho is much of a case study. It's practical to have a matriarchy when all the men have left the country.

[DJKillaQueen]

H is right in that men (generally speaking of course) are more forthright in negotiating pay scales, and value themselves higher. Having said that...a lot of wages are not negotiable and for a long time it was employers (usually male) that had some strange idea that a man and woman in the same job should not be paid equally. That can never be justified.

[vinceayre]

So child poverty is set to start rising again, and yet we still spend billions on world aid and weapons. I guess your trite messages about the problem gave Ladymuck the push to leave the forum. Maybe you could ask yourselves how many of you have actually done something positive about poverty and inequality in Britain or is it all just hot air and "reasoned debate"

[Loz]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> H is right in that men (generally speaking of

> course) are more forthright in negotiating pay

> scales, and value themselves higher.

An example. My other half was offered a new job and was happy with the money offered and had nearly accepted when she decided to ask me for a second opinion. I explained that, given the different terms and conditions (less holiday, different pension) she was actually accepting a pay cut, nevermind getting a bit of a raise out of changing jobs. A day or so of phone negotiations and she had the offer raised by a significant amount.

[Huguenot]

I do think you completely miss the point on 'world aid' vinceayre.

The UK taxpayers spend 160 billion every year on the welfare state - the cash that's committed to reducing poverty at all levels. Additionally there's hundreds of billions more going on health and education.

All of these are focused on alleviating child poverty amongst many other things.

In contrast overseas aid budget is less than 8bn - less than 0.5% of the welfare budget. If you took all the money from overseas aid and spent it on the welfare state there would not be enough of a change to notice.

That assumes you'd want to cut overseas aid anyway. It would be a daft idea.

There are two ways to cut child poverty, one is to increase the welfare budget, the other way is to get their parents in a job.

It's obvious to everyone that the preferred alternative is the second one.

Britain generates over 400bn every year in exports - keeping millions of people in work. Our successful international commerce is supported by the necessary component of overseas aid: it's part of doing business.

Additionally, the question 'how many of you have actually done something positive about poverty and inequality in Britain?' is pointless.

Everyone who went out to work today did their bit about poverty and inequality in Britan.

[Loz]

I've never understood the reasoning behind the "why do we give overseas aid - charity begins at home" argument. In that case, home is London - why bother worrying about the poor in Manchester, Birmingham, Wales and the like. Where do you draw the line?

Plus that fact that overseas poverty is 'real' poverty. None of this 'relative poverty' stuff.

[Laddy Muck]

This is probably (to some) going to sound silly, naive and simplistic - but, to hell with it!

To me, overseas aid is not merely about economics, money etc. Firstly, it not only makes a huge difference to people who are not as fortunate as ourselves, but it can also save lives (you cannot put a price on that). Giving aid is also a humanitarian act, and to not give it when entire communities have lost their homes in a tsunami, are destitute, are dying of Aids or cholera etc. would make us less rich as human beings.

I know this thread is about equality in Britain (and as Vinceayre rightly points out, child poverty looks set to worsen here), but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't look/act further than our own borders. As Loz (albeit facetiously) points out, other nations have to contend with far worse.

[Loz]

Facetious? Moi? :)

[Laddy Muck]

Oui - toi!:))