whats a breastfeeding counsellor and where do we get one?

[Polly D]

Sorry Fuschia but I do think it's reading posts like yours that can make people feel guilty about their choices and decisions regarding breast vs bottle.

I think most parents think their choices through, don't you? Do you actually believe deciding to offer your baby formula means you're not coping? What do you mean by a slippery slope?

[The Nappy Lady]

I think PollyD what she means is that it can be a slippery slope because when baby has a growth spurt you may give more bottle because the baby is demanding it, but that can mean your breast milk declines more and more, so you end up 100% bottle feeding, which may not be what you wanted to happen.

Knowing Fuschia I don't think she intended to cause any guilt, I think she was just trying to present both sides of the argument. If you are not armed with all the facts it can be hard to make a rationale decision (hard enough anyway I know when hormones and guilt are raging).

It is such a difficult and sensitive subject, and I think we all walk a very fine line, trying to show support to someone who is trying to succeed with breast feeding, whilst also saying it is OK to go with bottle feeding instead if in the end that is necessary.

I do know what you mean about F's post, but I think it is one of those posts that can be read differently depending on your mindset when you are reading it.

Given that Anna and Iain are getting professional help now I'm sure they will be OK, and whatever they end up doing will be right for them. Hopefully Ian will only take what he wants from this thread back to Anna anyway.

I don't think we should turn this thread into a "pros and cons" of breast vs bottle debate because that isn't what Iain's original post was about, and anyway it is always going to be an emotive subject with a lot of strong views.

Molly

[Belle]

It's interesting though as I know many women who sccessfully do mixed feeding, so don't think it's necessarily the case that one bottle of formula leads to full time bottle feeding.

[The Nappy Lady]

Very true (though no first hand experience as I couldn't get either of mine to take a bottle!).

But I think F was only trying to say that it can lead to problems, not that it definitely will if you see what I mean.

Anyway, I'm not really placed to advise on this because I was one of the lucky ones who found the whole process very easy, other than the usual painful nipples etc. for the first week or two first time around. It almost felt like my baby's had read a manual whilst in the womb and knew exactly what to do, I swear in her own way baby O was saying "come on Mum, just give me the nipple and I'll teach you how to do it"!

I have a friend with twins who exclusively breast fed for the first 2 weeks, and was almost on her knees. At which point she introduced one bottle of formula at bedtime which her other half gave while she expressed. He then gave the expressed milk at the next feed, which left her able to sleep from 9pm until about 2am when they would 'swap shifts'. It made all the difference and allowed her to get some much needed sleep.

One of the biggest learning curves in parenthood is however much you plan how you are going to do it all beforehand you never really know for sure until they come along and blow your best laid plans apart eh!

2nd time around I thought I 'knew' how I parent, but I find I've done some stuff completely differently this time, which has further confirmed my suspicions that there is never a right and wrong way, just a way you choose to do it.

Molly

[lorraineliyanage]

This is always an emotive subject on the forum! I do think there are great benefits to mixed-feeding although I'm not advocating that people do it as early as I did. I'm just glad that I'm still feeding my 16 month old as she was ill last week and refused all food, water and bottle, the only thing she wanted was the breast. I'm so grateful I was still breastfeeding otherwise I would have been beside myself with worry had she not eaten or drunk anything for 5 days.

[The Nappy Lady]

Lorraine,

Baby C was like this a couple of weeks back too, and guess what??......last night I discovered she has a molar!!!!

So.....8 teeth at the front and 1 huge molar at the back. How random!

Maybe B is on a mission to sprout a few more pegs.

Molly

xx

[lorraineliyanage]

We've got lots of molars so I think it was flu, she was pretty ill for a week but is much better now.

Forgot to say we had a reasonably successful tooth brushing session this morning thanks to your tip, although she wouldn't let me go anywhere near her molars. It's progress, nonetheless!

[The Nappy Lady]

Aw, poor girl, glad to hear she is better now, and (sort of) letting you brush her teeth! :))

[lorraineliyanage]

Of course she lets Daddy brush her teeth without any fussing so I usually delegate the job to him whenever possible! She's such a daddy's girl!

[iaineasy]

Thanks Polly for sticking up for us and molly for your brilliant powers of diplomacy

The fact of the matter is that when I first read fuschias post I was a tad miffed as it seemed to imply that we are bound to fail if we try mixed feeding, which is an underminig feeling for 2 people with there first baby who just want to do whats best for our little Angel,however luckily I have thicker skin than Annas poor nipples and no lasting offence has been taken, I will accept all points of veiw as valid because we have no experience and by starting this thread I guessed there would be lots of differring exeriences to draw from, and like anything you just have to glean what feels right from all the positions, it does seem to be an emotive subject though and very a interesting debate for someone who's nipples have hair on like mine.

[ryedalema]

You sound much more enlightened than my OH - he'd shudder at talking about this :-)

Just sticking in another experience for this melting pot. Our little one - Cassie (nearly 6 weeks) had prolonged jaundice up until about a week ago. She also had a tongue tie which the Bf counsellors and midwives thought was the reason for the jaundice - ie not able to feed enough therefore not flushing through the billarubin (excuse me I've no idea how to spell that). We were eventually referred to the special care unit at Kings to have her tested - her billarubin levels were 365 (normal levels in babes is about 50). The doctor told us to immediately start on formula as we could then 'see' how much fluid she was getting. So she started getting both boobs and then formula top ups. Her jaundice immediately started improving and the billarubin flushing through. She's fine now, and still getting formula top ups - so must be one greedy munchkin.

Apparently there's such a thing as 'breastmilk jaundice' which is an enzyme in all breastmilk that some babes react to - Cassie being one of them. So by mixed feeding we got rid of it, but wouldn't have done quickly otherwise.

I shed a few tears when we started on the formula - cos I felt like I couldn't look after her properly. But the main thing is we have a beautiful little daughter who no looks like she's been tangoed!

[iaineasy]

haha thats funny, we had to take Elsabel to kings because of jaundice too but they said it was okay and as Annas milk came in it has gone of its own accord. There's so much to learn about all this stuff but thats the fun of it.

[Fuschia]

You don't need to read anything into my post... I just said how i would have felt if my partner had suggsted formula to me when we had difficulties ... men like to "fix"things I know but sometimes what a mother doesn't want is for formula to be proposed... othertimes, maybe she does (just think what applies in your partner's case.. some mothers may like "permission" to add formula or stop bf.. some, just the opposite)

And it's true what Molly said.. often if formula has been introduced, more and more is given at each growth spurt, and bf gradually ceases.. again, that's fine if you only planned to bf for a short while, but less satisfactory if you wanted to bf longer.

By all means make your choice knowing your family... but make it an informed choice... often these paranring decisions have implications beyond the immediately obvious ones.

[Ann]

Ryedalema,

It's bilirubin and you're right there is such a thing as breast milk jaundice. It happened to a friend of mine years ago but I believe it's fairly rare. You've raised a valid point though and as others have said, you do what's best for your child at that moment according to your own circumstances.

Providing a loving stable home for your children is ultimately what matters most. End of.

ps I love your description of Clare Kedves as 'something of an Evangelist'. It is entirely appropriate, I was thinking more in terms of ' local living legend'. I believe she became a grandmother again recently, I'm sure you will all wish her well.

[gwod]

Clare Kedves is the Barbara Woodhouse of boob world....and I mean that in an entirely complimentary way!

[Belle]

rydedale - my baby had severe jaundice too, though we were still in hospital at the time, and i wish now in retrospect I'd just given him formula - had the paediatricians on one hand urging maximum fluid intake and the midwives in denial of the fact breastfeeding wasn't happening but not helping to get donor milk on the other. If only they had said (know they're not allowed to but i was in no fit state to think straight) just give him some formula to get the bilirubin down (and blood sugars up) - perhaps that would have allowed me to focus more on the breastfeeding in a relaxed way rather than stressing over every drop of colostrum. It may have been that bf would have taken off for me in that case but it didn't and we're all good anyway - baby said first word today and crawling a rate of nots. It's interesting about the role a husband/father should play in terms of what to suggest, I agree. My husband was very quietly supportive, not wanting to push a particular route but interestingly he has said that even though it's not what was planned he's been glad in one way as it's meant he's had lots more involvement than he'd expected. It was also a godsend to me in the early days as I had severe PND.

One note about Clare K - there is only one of her, no matter how fantastic she is - and unfortunately for us though we and my midwife contacted her in weeks one and two, she was ill and then on leave so unable to get back to me until baby was nearly 2 months, by which point we'd been completely formula feeding for 6 weeks. So def worth contacting more than one person to hedge your bets.

[alieh]

It sounds like you are well looked after with advice and contacts, iaineasy, but just another message of support for Katie Fisher, Lactation Consultant (contact details earlier on the thread). She came to the house when my son was 3 weeks old and saved breastfeeding for us by diagnosing tongue tie. The midwives were all lovely to that point, but none of them had picked up the tongue tie and they kept just telling me to stick more of the freaking areola (sp?) in baby's mouth, and drawing diagrams of nipples. I was going out of my mind, my husband was freaking out that I was screaming and swearing from the pain, and baby was feeding for up to 3 hours straight. Nightmare!

To anyone that has a similar experience and really wants to keep breastfeeding, do not hesitate in getting a private lactation consultant out to your house if you can possibly afford it. I think it was ?100 and we spent 2 hours with Katie, and then spoke to her on the phone every day for the next couple of weeks.

Also agree with the advice re: Clare Kedves at Kings and the breastfeeding clinics, either at the church on Barry Road or at Peckham Rye library.

Baby is 13.5 months old now and we're still happily BFing.

[anna_r]

Just want to reiterate along with everyone else how hard I found breastfeeding at the beginning, but how once I had pushed through those terrible first few weeks/months it got a lot better and I continued until my daughter was 7 months, by which time I really enjoyed it and was really happy I had pushed through. I remember getting out of the shower and wincing in pain every time the towel or any other clothing touched the boob, and spending a lot of the time in tears feeling guilty that I wasn't enjoying the newborn time with my daughter because I was in so much pain from breastfeeding :(

Glad things seem to be getting easier and that you have found someone helpful. A breakthrough for me was understanding you really had to hold the baby behind the head and shove them in to your boob, rather than bring the boob to meet them...and also the realisation that it gets a lot easier one they are able to support their own body a bit and hold themselves in a straight line rather than just slump into the pillow. The 'my brest friend' (such a dumb name) pillow was really good for me.

As a slight aside, can anyone tell me whether I can expect the same level of difficulty and pain in future? Now pregnant with my second and to be honest, the pain from breastfeeding in the beginning scares me more than the labour at this point. Is it easier second time round, or just as hard since the baby needs to learn how to do it? Obviously there are going to be differences between different babies, and potential complications such as tongue tie, but the thought of the bleeding nipples and waking in the night from the throbbing pain is really daunting....although I am definitely hoping to breastfeed again and am aiming to push through if needs be...

[ryedalema]

Just one to be aware of next time (and sorry to anyone if this is too icky), but i found the uterine contractions at the start when you 'let down' a bit sore/painful. Apparently you only tend to get these with #2 onwards. You can take paracetamol (and codeine if it's really bad and the doc prescribes it). They fade as your body gets back to normal - I think mine lasted 2-3 weeks.

[trinity]

anna_r Wrote:

> As a slight aside, can anyone tell me whether I

> can expect the same level of difficulty and pain

> in future?

My experience with breastfeeding has been that number 1 baby was awful - painful and difficult. With subsequent babies it was completely different - no pain and very straightforward. I think most people find it less painful and easier 2nd time round. I didn't get the pains that Ryedalema suffered from which sound quite unpleasant.

[Pickle]

My experience 2nd time round was completely different - a complete breeze, helped by the fact that she wasn't tongue tied, but also that I had a year of breastfeeding experience under my belt, so it came very naturally. I didn't get sore nipples at all. I also had the contractions that Ryedalema describes with my 2nd child (never with my 1st), they are quite sore (I had totally forgotten about them though, so not so sore that it haunts me!).

[sillywoman]

First 3 babes fed with no problem for varying lengths of time up to 9 months. Number 4 was a nightmare with me sobbing in the bath at 1 week old, crying that I couldn't carry on (& really knew that I couldn't). Sent husband out for nipple shields & they saved my bacon. Was able to rebuild confidence, give nipples a break & fed him 'till he gave up just after 2nd birthday. Had lots of advice from lovely midwife (Sophie, who now helps run the breastfeeding workshops at Kings), but in the end he was a 'lazy feeder' & just didn't open his mouth wide enough. It's not necessarily easier/ better with subsequent babies. You do have more knowledge & confidence, but sometimes it depends on the baby.

I had the afterpains ryedalema mentions. I got them successively badly with each baby - none at all with first one, last one felt like strong contractions - which is what they were of course. Paracetamol helped. I do know women who've had them with first baby though.

[The Nappy Lady]

Hi anna_r

First time around I had very sore nipples for the first week or so - used to wince and count to 10 when baby latched on, and remember wearing those breast shells to keep fabric from touching them and to let air get to them.

After a 4 year gap I suspected it would be as sore all over again - given that have something attached to your nipple for heaven knows how many hours a day but it wasn't anything like as bad. I don't remember any real soreness at all this time around thank goodness. I think maybe (racking my brain) one nipple was bit tender on one day, but that would be about it.

I got the afterpains 2nd time around - your uterus has to work a lot harder to contract down and breastfeeding stimulates this, so pain can often be worse when feeding. Make sure you've got plenty of paracetamol in the house just incase. Mine woke me in the night a couple of times - felt like very bad period pain - and I had to get up and go and take some paracetamol - so annoying when baby is sleeping and you still end up waking up for some other reason. It only lasted a few days though - maybe 4 or 5 after the birth. They do get worse with each baby you have (so my Mum says - she's had 6!!), because each time it is harder work for the uterus to contract back down to it's normal(ish) size.

Molly

x

[anna_r]

Thank you for all the advice about breastfeeding second time around x

[iaineasy]

good luck anna_r.

hugs