Is it okay to be a pregnant 'man' and transgender father?

[Jeremy]

Tut tut, Hal!

[Ladymuck]

It happens!

*sparks and smoke eminate from the onboard computer*

[The Chair]

Try and keep this on topic please.

Whilst I'm happy (and in fact would encourage) for people to post statistical information, from time to time I might check to see if it is factually accurate.

Lies, damned lies and statistics and all that.....

[mockney piers]

So that's just under 1% have ever served a sentence for a sexual offence.

Actually that's still alarmingly high isn't it!

[HAL9000]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> Altogether a fine bit of statistical abuse to

> proffer misinformation. And I'm still not sure to what end.

Misquoted a draft paper - no hidden agenda.

[mockney piers]

Sorry chair, cross posted. Back to being loving parents...

[kristymac1]

PeckhamRose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Why do we need 'role models'?

I'd say because we're a product of part nature/part nurture - those role models don't necessarily have to be parents, but we all need role models from a very early age in order to be accepting and be accepted in our own environment.

[Angie9]

Not my idea of what's normal - but what is normal these days? As others have said, if they bring the child up properly, then why not.

[SeanMacGabhann]

to take that further Angie - what has EVER been "normal"?

Things that were accepted (behaviourally rather than technology) as normal say 50 years ago would have been abhorrent to earlier generations

The word "normal" has always struck me as particularly scary

[Jeremy]

Nothing wrong with the word 'normal'. After all, this is not, by any stretch, a traditional family unit. I don't know anyone who was brought up by two female-to-male transexuals.

I have no problem with the situation - but to play devil's advocate - it would be simplistic to think that the family won't face particular challenges that most others won't.

[mockney piers]

In my vast experience of parenting it seems to involve working out which one of the twomsnatches some sleep.

Then, if they follow the patented Forum-Method it will at some point involve deciding just the right levels of physical abuse to make their child ambitious and successful.

I see no reason why they should be perculiarly different.

[SteveT]

It seems to affect the youngsters in their youth, when they take the 'beloved' home for the first time, and everything is different from all the other friends you deal with.

[mockney piers]

I see no issue. By that measur. We should feel sorry for the abnormal children in my friend's school (he's headmaster) in Billericay whose parents are still together.

[V511]

Hello all,

To go back to Silverfox's first post - "I'm just trying to decide where I stand on this"

My question is why do you feel you need to decide on this issue? I don't even view it as an issue, its just a couple of peoples lives out of 6 billion. Spread some joy & love Silverfox and don't worry about other peoples idea of love and families.

V.

[Strawbs]

And will the

> third child brought into this 'family' end up well

> adjusted?

Im interested to know why you put quotes around the word family as if to imply you didnt think their unit was a family unit?

[Strawbs]

HAL9000 Wrote:

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> I suppose the principal concern is that they might

> influence the sexuality of their children or even

> sexually abuse them?

>

> Sexual abuse occurs in regular families, so

> nothing new here.

>

> So, the question becomes, will such parents

> polarise or compromise the sexually of their

> children? Well, I guess that must be a

> possibility. Is that good or bad? I don't know.

Im not sure how you would 'sexually influence' someone..? I was brought up in a straight house with my parents being straight, my 3 brothers and sisters being straight yet I am gay - so did I miss out on being sexually influenced by my family as my siblings did? And why on earth would these people be more likely (for lack of a better phrase) or atleast it be a concern that they would sexually abuse their children?

Sexuality is who you are and not what others around you are..

[HAL9000]

Strawbs Wrote:

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> Im not sure how you would 'sexually influence'

> someone..?

SeanMacGabhann pulled me up on this very point. I'm not sure that it is possible to influence one's sexual orientation - some evidence seems to suggest that it is already fixed at birth, but I'm aware of exceptions.

In my case, I have such a disproportionally high number of gay female first cousins that it suggests (to me) that the trait was passed down via one or other of my maternal grandparents.

My point was that those who think it can be directed by experience might be concerned about that issue in such a case.

However, as an example, I've noticed that guys in my age group are far more likely to be aroused by a glimpse of stockings and suspender belt than younger guys who grew up in an environment where women hardly ever wear them. I suspect that some fetishes (rubber, bondage, etc.) can form as a result of one's earliest sexual experiences.

> I was brought up in a straight house

> with my parents being straight, my 3 brothers and

> sisters being straight yet I am gay - so did I

> miss out on being sexually influenced by my family

> as my siblings did?

I've had this conversation before - with a couple of bi-girlfriends and their gay lovers. Presumably, you knew you were gay right from the start? But I've known women who only discovered their true preference after going through one or more failed hetro marriages. That applies to a few guys I know, too.

> And why on earth would these

> people be more likely (for lack of a better

> phrase) or at least it be a concern that they would

> sexually abuse their children?

I didn't mean to say it was - just that some people may think it is.

> Sexuality is who you are and not what others

> around you are..

Try telling that to my therapist - she says I'm a lesbian trapped in a male body :(

Anyway, when we figure out why hetro guys fantasise about gay girls, only then can we claim to understand human sexuality.

[silverfox]

Strawbs, the reason I wrote 'family' is because it's such an odd set up. If this was a heterosexual couple in Britain they'd probably be refused adoption on the basis they're obese alone.

Here are two females who from an early age were unhappy with what nature gave them. They've undergone chemical and surgical reconstruction to become more like males. However, conveniently, Scott, although wishing to be a man mentally has relied on the reality that 'he' is in fact a female to become legally married and also to have a child. Further, they have now become a family.

Hence my original question, is this a case of two mixed up individuals playing a potentially dangerous game of mommies and daddies?

And coming to your point to Hal9000 that 'Sexuality is who you are and not what others around you are' with these two it seems to be more of a case of sexuality is what you can become and what you choose it to be.

This does not mean to say these two will be worse parents than many other parents.

[Strawbs]

>

> And coming to your point to Hal9000 that

> 'Sexuality is who you are and not what others

> around you are' with these two it seems to be more

> of a case of sexuality is what you can become and

> what you choose it to be.

sorry before I get up on my soapbox are you saying that sexuality is a choice?

Whilst I agree that the family unit is not something you hear of everyday (but this is also not the first case of this happening) I dont think anyone has the right to judge them as 'odd', not sure why some people feel they actually have that right or that what they think or judgements they make and share with others actually matters..

When it comes down to it are these people purely because they were born female and now have become male (even though they are using their reproductive organs to have a child) unfit / unsuitable / bad parents? So long as the home life is stable and loving then essentially there is no issue here..

Some people think that my situation is 'odd' i.e being a lesbian and being married to another lesbian and going on the path of starting a family and quite frankly I find it offensive and also find it offensive that people who are not in the situation sitting up on their highchairs and passing judgement.. I dont think anyone whether they be gay / straight / trans / government has the right to tell anyone else how to live and if they are 'allowed' or they feel it is suitable for them to get married or have a family.. Live and let live is what I say...

[mockney piers]

I think it might be a high horse. People on highchairs tend to be more concerned with 'i done poo poo.

Other than that what strawbs said. Also on HAL's point I too have an extraordinarily high proportion of lesbians on my distaff relatives (including my mum, though she didn't work it out until i was in my twenties; don't know what took her so long, I think I'd known a good ten years before she'd worked it out) suggesting that genetics is at the least a strongly contributory factor.

[silverfox]

Well it strikes me there is an element of choosing one's sexuality here.

To me a person's sex is a biological fact, you are born male or female. Psychologically a person may prefer to have been born into the opposite sex. There may be chemical reasons why this is preferred, unusual levels of testosterone, oestrogen etc - I don't know.

It all depends what you mean by 'sexuality'. As a lesbian you are still a female. A gay man is still a man. Transgender people choose to alter their physical appearance but they can't alter their sex, whatever euphemisms we attach. In the case of Scott and his partner I can't see that you can describe their actions as anything other than doing everything within their means to change their 'sexuality', but try as they might they can't change their sex.

As you say, so long as the home life is stable and loving then essentially there is no issue here..

[V511]

Silverfox,

You have forgotten about those born as intersex - or hermaphrodites in older language.

The world of sex, sexuality & gender is a huge and ever evolving discourse all of which has not much to do with a persons suitability to be a parent. To question one unconventional couples suitability misses the bigger picture of how many heterosexual people are unsuitable to being parents. There are thousands and thousands of them. If you want to involve yourself in other peoples lives then at least focus on those people that have the biggest impact on the greatest number.

V.

[silverfox]

I hadn't forgotten about those born as intersex or hermaphrodites - to my knowledge these are still xx or xy individuals. There is simply ambiguity about the sexual characteristics (or maybe not that simply)

[HAL9000]

silverfox Wrote:

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> to my knowledge these are still xx or xy individuals.

Sex chromosome variations include XY, XX, X0, XXX, XXXX, XXXXX, XXY, XXXY (amongst other rarer conjugations) - Source.

[Bellenden Belle]

silverfox Wrote:

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> To me a person's sex is a biological fact, you are

> born male or female.

>

> It all depends what you mean by 'sexuality'. As a

> lesbian you are still a female. A gay man is still

> a man. Transgender people choose to alter their

> physical appearance but they can't alter their

> sex, whatever euphemisms we attach.

Judith Butler,in her book "Gender Trouble" makes a convincing argument that the concept of gender is a social construct.The labels "man" and woman" are essentially put upon us at birth, according to what sex we appear to be.

Separating the notion of what "sex" we are, as represented by our genitalia with what gender we choose to identify with lies at the heart of the transgender debate.

I think it helps enormously to not tie everything up with sexuality - it's too simplistic - people don't change their gender to necessarily support their "chosen" sexuality. People's sexuality is defined early on and is a separate issue - which is why transgendered people cover the same spectrum of sexuality as people who haven't chosen to redefine their gender.

As for the rest of the debate -I agree with Strawbs and Piers - they might be terrible parents, they might be terrific - either way it is not business to judge them.