Goose Green flooding

[macroban]

It's raining again.

Makes me remember the regular Goose Green flooding that used to happen before the new big storm sewer/drain was put in under Grove Vale. Must have been put in during the late 1960s. The excavations lasted for months.

I never saw the flooding much deeper then about twelve inches. I wish I had a photograph of pedestrians wading around the Goose Green roundabout. Perhaps someone did take one that can be shared?

I suspect this is nearly forgotten local history. I'll be surprised if contemporary house surveys in the area include a flood risk assessment.

I hope this flooding will never be a problem again despite Southwark Council not seeming to dredge the street drains as often as they used to.

I think I've only seen a couple of basement extensions in the area so far.

[Muttley]

Reminds me that about ten years ago basements around the station end of Melbourne Grove were flooding with sewage etc (or so it was said) and there was a huge trench down the length of Melbourne Grove for months as they replaced the crumbling sewer. Elsie and Derwent were both closed off to traffic and there was road chaos throughout.

[spadetownboy]

were there any geese wading around?

[macroban]

No. The only waddling animals were humans.

[TJS]

Did this flooding cover all of Grove Vale, or just near the roundabout and head of melbourne grove?

[macroban]

There are two distinct things here.

Muttley wrote about a recent pipe-burst.

I wrote about flooding caused by heavy rainstorms fifty odd years ago. These were more or less centered on the Goose Green roundabout and never when I saw them did they stretch much more than 50 feet from the roundabout nor at their worst were they much more than about a foot deep. Since the storm drain/sewer was put in there has been no more than a couple of inches of surface water during the heaviest rainstorms.

This could be why you step ~up~ into the retail units at 96 and 98 Grove Vale.

[snorky]

erm..... why do you think its was called goose green originally ? what does the presence of Geese usually signify ?

its fairly obvious its traditionally been a boggy area.

Im not going to start my personal underground watercourses of ED & Environs fetish again

[macroban]

I'm sorry, but I don't know the etymology of "Goose Green".

I've never been able to get my hands on the English Place Name Society volume on Surrey that was published way back in 1934, and "Goose Green" is probably far too small to get a mention there.

From reading other EPNS material and books by Gelling and Hoskins I do know that the modern rendering and ossification of ancient place names can be extremely deceptive as to the early names for a place and their derivation. So much so that it is highly unlikely that "Goose Green" had anything to do with geese whatsover.

That said, it would be pleasent to discover that there were once geese on Goose Green.

Perhaps there is a local historian who has some evidence.

I don't think Goose Green itself has ever been a water-logged area, but residents of East Dulwich Road might know better.

I was writing specifically about the Goose Green roundabout. It may be a natural hollow or just the result of bad workmanship when the tram-lines were removed. Even today after many minor road and pavement realignments, road resurfacing, road regradienting and recambering the roundabout still sits in a hollow. You just need to walk by and look.

[Michael Palaeologus]

There are many "Goose Greens" usually on the outskirts of town or city. It was where the outlying farmers would drive their geese to sell to the market traders who would then sell them on. Historically the area wasnt boggy it consisted of farm land where vegetables and salad crops were grown.

Anyody remember the flash flood under the ED station bridge a few years ago? I saw a sea eagle and an otter and a basking shark outside the DIY shop.

[snorky]

check out John Beasleys stuff - you cane get it in that Bookshop with th leaky ceiling on LL - there is a goose link to the area + water

"This was the village green of East Dulwich and long ago was connected to Peckham Rye Common. It was part of the manor of Camberwell Friern and was purchased as an open space in 1868. It may have received its name from the time Mrs Dench kept donkeys and geese on the green. Another theory is that it was originally called Gorse Green for botanical reasons. There used to be a pound for stray animals which is shown on Dewhurst's 1842 map. There were two ponds, one on the site of St John the Evangelist Church. There was a drinking fountain erected on the green in commemoration of the Jubilee of Queen Victoria (1837-87). In Memories of the good and bad old days of childhood contributed by some East Dulwich people Elsie Stukings wrote: 'When the war years came in 1914 we children used to look through high railings round Goose Green and watch the soldiers drilling, and there were horses and tents as well'.

History GG ?

[Brendan]

There is a Goose Green somewhere on the Falklands. It had something to do with the recent comemoration of the war. Wonder if it has any connection to ED?

[macroban]

John Beasley is a respected local historian, however you will note that your quote from page 66 of his book "East Dulwich" is, in this case, reportage with the key words and phrases "It may have" and "Another theory is".

Map evidence shows that the name "Goose Green" was ossified by no later than 1744. At that time the land we now know as Goose Green was part of an enclosed field then extending as far as what we now call Oglander Road. Locals didn't, as far as I know, graze their geese on enclosed land.

The long-standing local story about Old Dame Dench is a good one, but the chronology doesn't work. It's in the same class as the Horniman plague pits - until someone finds some evidence.

I've always liked the theory about "Gorse Green", but again I've never seen any evidence to support this.

[snorky]

Strangeley enough, oglander/ marsen/ondine are boggy where the gardens meet in the middle and the water table is high - eg at the minute - I have commented before, but the underground stream has caused some houses to be declared unsafe & abandoned due to sinking & movement. - you must know the famous one that is a shell & is held up by what seems scaffolding on Marsen road - this stream must have been related to the Goose green ponds ( as described above ).

goose green- as it was - has ponds - and the ex goose green area still shows evidence of bogs/ waterlogging

Ponds without geese ? Unimaginable

I rest my case

[snorky]

BTW, I remember the last Flood at ED Station. the horror. the horror

[mikeb]

Would that underground stream be where the wildlife centre is now? I always thought that derelict house on Marsden Rd was due to neglect - its neighbour seems alright.

[Asset]

I read somewhere on a previous post that that is indeed the case.

[snorky]

mikeb Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Would that underground stream be where the

> wildlife centre is now? I always thought that

> derelict house on Marsden Rd was due to neglect -

> its neighbour seems alright.

stream goes right under it - the house is collapsing

[macroban]

For clarity I should have written that the old Goose Green area was more like the area we now know as Grove Vale.

I have seen no evidence on maps dating from 1744 up to present for ponds on any part of the old Goose Green area including what we now call Goose Green. I suppose I ought to check some of the older books like Brayley's "History of Surrey" and Blanch's "Ye Parish of Camerwell" just in case there are references I have forgotten to small ponds that never made it to the maps.

Probably the quickest way to nail the ponds is to contact John Beasley through the Peckham Society and ask for his source(s) especially for the pond said to be under St John's.

For the moment it seems to me there is a circular argument here. Something like:

It's called Goose Green so there must have been geese

There were geese so there must have been a pond

There was a pond so there must have been geese

There were geese and that's why it's called Goose Green

I have also never seen any evidence for underground streams in the Marsden Road area. I know little of geology, but I understand that natural underground streams don't happen in clay soils and that where people think there are underground streams it is actually just surface ground-water that is unable to permeate through the fine particles of the clay.

Large scale Ordnance Survey maps exist for the Marsden Road area from when it was still enclosed fields. There are no overground streams shown which could have been re-routed underground when the area was developed for housing.

However there are field boundaries shown of what was the old Friern Manor. I would not be surprised if there were agricultural drainage ditches along these boundaries. I've not checked the historic field boundary alignments with the present day Marsden Road, but it is plausible that a house was "jerry-built" over one of these ditches.

I'm quite intrigued about the source of the information about underground streams.

[Asset]

What about the Effra and the Fleet? They are now underground but originally were above ground. Perhaps the stream that now goes under Marsden Rd was once above ground.

[snorky]

macroban Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> For clarity I should have written that the old

> Goose Green area was more like the area we now

> know as Grove Vale.

>

> I have seen no evidence on maps dating from 1744

> up to present for ponds on any part of the old

> Goose Green area including what we now call Goose

> Green. I suppose I ought to check some of the

> older books like Brayley's "History of Surrey" and

> Blanch's "Ye Parish of Camerwell" just in case

> there are references I have forgotten to small

> ponds that never made it to the maps.

>

> Probably the quickest way to nail the ponds is to

> contact John Beasley through the Peckham Society

> and ask for his source(s) especially for the pond

> said to be under St John's.

>

> For the moment it seems to me there is a circular

> argument here. Something like:

>

> It's called Goose Green so there must have been

> geese

>

> There were geese so there must have been a pond

>

>

> There was a pond so there must have been geese

>

> There were geese and that's why it's called

> Goose Green

>

>

> I have also never seen any evidence for

> underground streams in the Marsden Road area. I

> know little of geology, but I understand that

> natural underground streams don't happen in clay

> soils and that where people think there are

> underground streams it is actually just surface

> ground-water that is unable to permeate through

> the fine particles of the clay.

>

> Large scale Ordnance Survey maps exist for the

> Marsden Road area from when it was still enclosed

> fields. There are no overground streams shown

> which could have been re-routed underground when

> the area was developed for housing.

>

> However there are field boundaries shown of what

> was the old Friern Manor. I would not be surprised

> if there were agricultural drainage ditches along

> these boundaries. I've not checked the historic

> field boundary alignments with the present day

> Marsden Road, but it is plausible that a house was

> "jerry-built" over one of these ditches.

>

> I'm quite intrigued about the source of the

> information about underground streams.

AFAIK, stream maybe a little optimistic TBH - its more of a water table issue - the marsen/og area does get boggy along the boundaries of the back to back gardens when theres alot of water - ask a resident - you are right about underground streams ( I too know some geology ) - underground rivers are usually in karst type environments .

the wildlife centre is a good half meter lower than the surrounding streets if you take a walk down - it would be natural for water to acuumulate here - this would also be casued by ole skool agricultural ditches/ drains in the same area

I Know John beasley, so Ill pull him to one side next time i see him!

[snorky]

mikeb Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Would that underground stream be where the

> wildlife centre is now? I always thought that

> derelict house on Marsden Rd was due to neglect -

> its neighbour seems alright.

look diagonally accross for th fornt of thr collapsing house and you will see the other side of th stret has expeienced distinct - and patched up - slumping affecting 1/2 houses only

[macroban]

Thanks, snorky.

I'd appreciate feedback.

[macroban]

Snorky,

I'd be grateful if you would ask John Beasley a supplementary question about the possible St John's pond.

In c1866 when a site was being selected for St John's there was a wide choice of undeveloped agricultural land where the church could be built.

Why did the builders choose to build such a substantial structure over an old pond?

Thank you.

[Amelie]

The Effra runs above ground in Belair Park, which was flooded years ago due to heavy rain causing the river to burst its banks.

[David Mc]

John lives across the road from me. I'll ask him next time I see him.