New owners want to carry out a side extension and return - has this happened to you?

[LondonMix]

Sorry but I disagree with this. The party wall surveyor is totally independent and getting your own does nothing of value. I agree the surveyor shouldn't be an employee of the builder but otherwise using a joint surveyor not associated with the work is absolutely fine. If you feel more comfortable, you can select the surveyor that acts for both of you.

The only thing you can get from the party wall award is clear terms regarding when work can be carried out and a documented basis for the starting condition of your house and the process by which damage will be fixed.

Speak to your neighbours and ensure they have submitted their plans to building control for approval- this is how you can ensure the plans / engineering are safe not through a party wall agreement. Building control will also carry out regular inspections of the work to ensure its of the right quality and conforms with the plans. Also, be very firm in seeing the liability insurance of the contractor so you know there is money to put things right.

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> red devil Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> You can

> > decide whether or not you wish to use their

> > moninated surveyor, or you can get your own

> > independent surveyor.

>

>

> I really strongly advise you to find your own

> surveyor who has no connection at all and never

> has had with the building firm concerned.

>

> But it's a good idea to start looking now, as the

> reason I used a nominated surveyor was lack of

> time by the time the Party Wall notice was

> submitted, as I was really busy.

>

> As red devil says, you should not have to pay any

> costs relating to the surveyor.

[nunhead_man]

>the party wall surveyor is totally independent and getting your own does nothing of value.

OK - will this person also cover / value / act on damage caused - eg drains replacement, patio damage?

[Sue]

The party wall surveyor I had was acting for both parties, was well in with the building firm, and so far as I could see was lacking in competence.

The fact that he got very basic things wrong on his initial survey did not fill me with confidence, let's say.

I understand they are no longer using him, but too late for me.

[LondonMix]

I think that's not at all okay Sue. I think most neighbours might be happy for you to select the surveyor to ensure independence. However, paying for two doesn't add anything if the joint one is good and independent.

[worldwiser]

Honestly the best thing would be if you can finance a mirror scheme on your side of the fence. This is a great opportunity to do a side return of your own and would be the cheapest time you'll ever be able to do it.

If that's not your cup of tea, then think about the following. We got planning permission (that we're actually not going to use) for a side return that was only 2.4m high at the boundary. The roof structure contained the guttering so wouldn't have affected neighbours. Get them to do likewise.

Like others have said, unless you really don't get on with your neighbours' surveyor, don't bother getting your own. At the very least you'll be putting your neighbour to about 2k worth of extra cost which they'll hate you for, the build will take longer and nothing substantive will have been achieved. Legally they are independent professionals in these cases.

Right to light can be an issue but in our case we face south so would never have been a problem. And a 2.4m high wall isn't high enough to matter - most fences are legally allowed to be up to 2m and 40cm isn't going to make a big difference. And if you paint your side of the wall white, you may even end up with more light. Don't bother objecting on the grounds of noise and inconvenience as you will be ignored. Better to work with your neighbour and mould their scheme into something acceptable because putting up a fight will just extend the build and cause you unnecessary stress.

[LondonMix]

The party wall award will outline how claims for damage can be made without having to go to civil court. Like I said, the agreement documents the condition of the neighbours house before work starts. This protects the person doing work from spurious claims but it also neighbours from having to dispute if damage was pre-existing.

nunhead_man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> >the party wall surveyor is totally independent

> and getting your own does nothing of value.

>

> OK - will this person also cover / value / act on

> damage caused - eg drains replacement, patio

> damage?

[LondonMix]

The main thing is that once a surveyor has been appointed they act in the interest of both parties regardless of who selected them. In all cases the surveyor is paid by the owner. Also, the surveyor can't be fired once appointed so they cannot come under pressure to act with bias.

With that said, I would not select a joint surveyor who was associated with the carrying out the works in anyway.

[Willard]

I would agree with everyone advising to get the wall built as a joint wall on the boundary. This gives you the option to build off it too, even if you don't want to straight away. Even if you don't want to at all, it's an option that a potential buyer might like as and when you come to sell.

I would also be inclined to go for the joint surveyor. This helps keep lines of communication open and will speed up the process.

[red devil]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Speak to your neighbours and ensure they have

> submitted their plans to building control for

> approval- this is how you can ensure the plans /

> engineering are safe not through a party wall

> agreement. Building control will also carry out

> regular inspections of the work to ensure its of

> the right quality and conforms with the plans.

That's making a big assumption that the neighbour will submit detailed plans to Building Control for approval before works commence. They don't have to as there are two ways to obtain Bulding Regs approval...

One way, called Full Plans, is to submit detailed drawings and specifications (design and structural), with the aim to get approval before works commence. However, approval might carry certain conditions that have to be addressed, for instance it may be impossible to ascertain the existing drainage layout until works begin...sometimes a solution can only be worked out on site, or something unforeseen crops up, and things have to change accordingly. But this is easily remedied as the Building Control Inspector will carry out periodic inspections at critical stages, e.g. foundations, drainage, walls up to dpc level, and so on. The Inspector is effectively signing-off the works in stages, and at the end they will issue you with a final Completion Certificate.

The other way is by what is known as a Building Notice. The builder only has to inform the Council that works are due to commence no less than 48 hours before the start date. This is quite common if the works are not complicated, and I would say that simple extensions of this nature are not deemed complicated.

It is also a common route to take as it means the property owner doesn't go to the expense of employing someone to do detailed drawings and specifications, instead they can give the builder a basic set of drawings, perhaps those submitted for planning, and everything is then left to the builder to liaise with Building Control. As before, the Inspector will make periodic checks to see that what is being built meets with current Regs. They will still want to see Structural Drawings/Calculations for steel beams and columns etc. But for a simple lintel over a door opening it can easily be ok'd on site by the Inspector.

Southwark produce a ''Guide To Extending Your Home'', which explains this and much more, useful for the layperson.

For a Party Wall Award, the Surveyor will require detailed information/drawings, but this is not tied into Building Control approval in any way...

[soyamocha3]

To Worldwiser

Thanks for that.

We are not inclined to do the extension ourselves because we only put in a brand new kitchen last year. In addition, unlike our neighbours, we will be in occupation - they are living elsewhere, so you can imagine what having that work going on in our house would be like and living in the property. We cannot move elsewhere we have way too much stuff.

The measurements on your planning permission are about what we would hope to negotiate. Unless the wall straddles our

property, we will not be able to touch it, paint it, hang anything on it etc. We did try and console ourselves that we could paint it white and make is appear lighter but that would appear to be out of the question.

The reason I would like my own surveyor is that he will be acting for me and me alone. When I call him, he will call me back first not the other party. Obviously I don't want them to hate me but I am not feeling the love for them right now.

To be honest, we will have endure months of builders, noise, disruption, moving our three full sheds, paperwork, calls, emails, dirt, dust, lack of privacy, lack of security and possible damage because we have quite a old pipes in that area under the paving - all to eventually end up with a brick wall right outside our kitchen window and an additional 40cm of brick is quite a bit when it is directly in your face. If all they have to do is find ?1k, I don't think that is much to ask.

[LondonMix]

Red devil-- believe it or not I've been through this process on both sides and am aware of all of that. My point was that if you are concerned about work being done safely, ensuring building control is involved is more important than the partywall survey. Often times people think that's the role of the party wall surveyor and its not.

Yes, some issues will be resolved by building control on the spot both with structure and drainage- that was my personal experience. Someone doing the amount of work detailed in the OP's post should have full engineer drawings before starting and those should be submitted (though not necessarily approved) before starting. Yes, for minor work, full plans aren't necessary but I wasn't speaking in the abstract. The OP detailed what was being done.

red devil Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > Speak to your neighbours and ensure they have

> > submitted their plans to building control for

> > approval- this is how you can ensure the plans

> /

> > engineering are safe not through a party wall

> > agreement. Building control will also carry

> out

> > regular inspections of the work to ensure its

> of

> > the right quality and conforms with the plans.

>

>

> That's making a big assumption that the neighbour

> will submit detailed plans to Building Control for

> approval before works commence. They don't have to

> as there are two ways to obtain Bulding Regs

> approval...

>

> One way, called Full Plans, is to submit detailed

> drawings and specifications (design and

> structural), with the aim to get approval before

> works commence. However, approval might carry

> certain conditions that have to be addressed, for

> instance it may be impossible to ascertain the

> existing drainage layout until works

> begin...sometimes a solution can only be worked

> out on site, or something unforeseen crops up, and

> things have to change accordingly. But this is

> easily remedied as the Building Control Inspector

> will carry out periodic inspections at critical

> stages, e.g. foundations, drainage, walls up to

> dpc level, and so on. The Inspector is effectively

> signing-off the works in stages, and at the end

> they will issue you with a final Completion

> Certificate.

>

> The other way is by what is known as a Building

> Notice. The builder only has to inform the Council

> that works are due to commence no less than 48

> hours before the start date. This is quite common

> if the works are not complicated, and I would say

> that simple extensions of this nature are not

> deemed complicated.

> It is also a common route to take as it means the

> property owner doesn't go to the expense of

> employing someone to do detailed drawings and

> specifications, instead they can give the builder

> a basic set of drawings, perhaps those submitted

> for planning, and everything is then left to the

> builder to liaise with Building Control. As

> before, the Inspector will make periodic checks to

> see that what is being built meets with current

> Regs. They will still want to see Structural

> Drawings/Calculations for steel beams and columns

> etc. But for a simple lintel over a door opening

> it can easily be ok'd on site by the Inspector.

>

> Southwark produce a ''Guide To Extending Your

> Home'', which explains this and much more, useful

> for the layperson.

>

> For a Party Wall Award, the Surveyor will require

> detailed information/drawings, but this is not

> tied into Building Control approval in any way...

[LondonMix]

Your surveyor will not be acting for you. Even if you have your two surveyors both have to act in the interest of both parties. That's the law. You have no additional control over their recommendations or the outcome of the award and you cannot fire them if you disagree with what they suggest.

The additional cost can be higher than 1k-- the two surveyors have to coordinate with one another which means the time both spend on the award is higher. Also, the process is slower.

At the end of the day you will have to live next to each other so its in both of your interests to try to communicate openly and be considerate of each other as best you can.

You say you aren't feeling the love from your neighbours. What exactly have they done already to sour things. Its better to try to repair things if possible asap before the work really gets going because by then everyone will be super stressed. I say this as someone who has had two neighbours do work and as someone who has done work and who still exchanges Christmas cards with neighbours and both sides.

soyamocha3 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To Worldwiser

>

> Thanks for that.

>

> We are not inclined to do the extension ourselves

> because we only put in a brand new kitchen last

> year. In addition, unlike our neighbours, we will

> be in occupation - they are living elsewhere, so

> you can imagine what having that work going on in

> our house would be like and living in the

> property. We cannot move elsewhere we have way

> too much stuff.

>

> The measurements on your planning permission are

> about what we would hope to negotiate. Unless

> the wall straddles our

> property, we will not be able to touch it, paint

> it, hang anything on it etc. We did try and

> console ourselves that we could paint it white and

> make is appear lighter but that would appear to be

> out of the question.

>

> The reason I would like my own surveyor is that he

> will be acting for me and me alone. When I call

> him, he will call me back first not the other

> party. Obviously I don't want them to hate me

> but I am not feeling the love for them right now.

>

>

> To be honest, we will have endure months of

> builders, noise, disruption, moving our three full

> sheds, paperwork, calls, emails, dirt, dust, lack

> of privacy, lack of security and possible damage

> because we have quite a old pipes in that area

> under the paving - all to eventually end up with a

> brick wall right outside our kitchen window and an

> additional 40cm of brick is quite a bit when it is

> directly in your face. If all they have to do is

> find ?1k, I don't think that is much to ask.

[red devil]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Red devil-- believe it or not I've been through

> this process on both sides and am aware of all of

> that. My point was that if you are concerned

> about work being done safely, ensuring building

> control is involved is more important than the

> partywall survey. Often times people think that's

> the role of the party wall surveyor and its not.

My point is that a neighbour can't ensure Building Control are involved at the Party Wall stage.

A polite request, yes, but to ensure, nope...

[red devil]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes, some issues will be resolved by building

> control on the spot both with structure and

> drainage- that was my personal experience.

> Someone doing the amount of work detailed in the

> OP's post should have full engineer drawings

> before starting and those should be submitted

> (though not necessarily approved) before starting.

> Yes, for minor work, full plans aren't necessary

> but I wasn't speaking in the abstract. The OP

> detailed what was being done.

Neither was I dealing in the abstract. The works described are very basic and common, with a competent builder/architet/project manager etc, a Building Notice would suffice...

[LondonMix]

I didn't say they should they should do this at the party wall stage though did I?

You can't force your neighbours to do much in these circumstances but when picking your battles, these are my recommendations for the most important things to focus on so that you are comfortable the work is safe and being done properly. Similarly, you can't force you neighbours to show you the public liability insurance details of their builder. However, requesting it and raising serious concerns if its not provided is one of the points I wouldn't back down from either.

red devil Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Red devil-- believe it or not I've been through

> > this process on both sides and am aware of all

> of

> > that. My point was that if you are concerned

> > about work being done safely, ensuring building

> > control is involved is more important than the

> > partywall survey. Often times people think

> that's

> > the role of the party wall surveyor and its

> not.

>

> My point is that a neighbour can't ensure Building

> Control are involved at the Party Wall stage.

> A polite request, yes, but to ensure, nope...

[LondonMix]

Let's just agree to disagree as it isn't the point I was making. The point is that building control's involvement is more important for quality control than the party wall surveyor, which is a common misconception.

red devil Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > Yes, some issues will be resolved by building

> > control on the spot both with structure and

> > drainage- that was my personal experience.

> > Someone doing the amount of work detailed in

> the

> > OP's post should have full engineer drawings

> > before starting and those should be submitted

> > (though not necessarily approved) before

> starting.

> > Yes, for minor work, full plans aren't

> necessary

> > but I wasn't speaking in the abstract. The OP

> > detailed what was being done.

>

> Neither was I dealing in the abstract. The works

> described are very basic and common, with a

> competent builder/architet/project manager etc, a

> Building Notice would suffice...

[Penguin68]

Similarly, you can't force you neighbours to show you the public liability insurance details of their builder.

My understanding is that where a builder (acting as an agent) doesn't have public liability insurance that liability then falls on the party commissioning the builder as agent - so your neighbour would then be the first port of call to sue - and you know that they have at least a part of an asset - the house being worked on. It is thus in your neighbour's best interests that he/ she ensures that their agents do have public liability cover - whether you are shown this is less material.

If you know who their chosen builder is it might be worth while doing your own check on them (Google is helpful, so is this forum) - if you are then worried share your worry - and the evidence - with your neighbour. They may even thank you.

[LondonMix]

Penguin-- I totally agree its in everyone's interest for the builder to be insured which is the argument I would make to the neighbours if there was any resistance on their part.

If their builder goes bust, causes damage and runs off, etc suing your neighbours in court while they are in the middle of a crisis is no one's idea of a good time. Particularly if winning forces them to lose their house.

[soyamocha3]

Thank you very much for all this advice - it really has been very helpful.

[Judge]

When we have built extensions on the boundary before we have always asked what finish they would like on their side of the wall. If you want a white rendered wall instead of brick there is no harm in speaking to your neighbour and seeing if they will do this - after all they will never have to look at it. From the builder's perspective building a block wall and then rendering I suspect is cheaper and will definitely be quicker - so probably less disruptive to you.

[nunhead_man]

>If their builder goes bust,

Oooh yes - someone I know in Honor Oak is in just that pickle - neighbors builder went bust - they have a new one now but luckily there was insurance to pay for shoring up the wall the first lot undermined

[Azira]

soyamocha3 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Obviously I don't want them to hate me

> but I am not feeling the love for them right now.

>

>

> To be honest, we will have endure months of

> builders, noise, disruption, moving our three full

> sheds, paperwork, calls, emails, dirt, dust, lack

> of privacy, lack of security and possible damage

> because we have quite a old pipes in that area

> under the paving - all to eventually end up with a

> brick wall right outside our kitchen window and an

> additional 40cm of brick is quite a bit when it is

> directly in your face. If all they have to do is

> find ?1k, I don't think that is much to ask.

It does sound a bit like you are aggrieved because they are doing this at all, regardless of whether they infringe your legal rights- particularly with the comments that they are going to be away during this, which really hasn't got anything to do with your property.

I completely get that it's irritating. I am sandwiched between houses with young kids on either side where the little cherubs scream and thunder up and down their halls for hours on end. When I'm trying to concentrate on work it pisses me off too (and even worse I have to live with this for years), but I also accept that there's nothing I can do about it because it's their property and they are legally entitled to act in the way they are. Try to separate your annoyance that they are using their property in a way that you'd rather they don't, and the issues about the need to protect your own property.

[Sue]

Unfortunately in this area, where most of the housing stock is terraces or semis, it's inevitable that there will be noise of some sort from adjoining houses because soundproofing is never going to be great and also sound travels in weird ways.

I once lived in a house with teenage learner drummers on both sides :))

But noise, disruption and finally lack of light due to major building work for months on end is a completely different kettle of fish, surely.

[LondonMix]

Lack of light is different, but the disruption of building work not really. If you don't want to be disturbed by neighbours (building work disruption is temporary compared to the others!) you need to live in a detached house on a large plot.

Its one of the downsides of living in a terrace / semi.

[Azira]

I don't think it is Sue. I have to deal with ongoing noise several hours a day and sometimes into the night for what seems like the next several years. It's significant enough that I can hear it even through noise-cancelling headphones, and it significantly disrupts my work (which I do from home). I've also lived next to major building works that took place over 9 months on one side, then started up on the other at the same time, so can also sympathise with that.

We could get into debate whether significant noise over the years is better or worse than noise, mess and temporary light restrictions over a period of months, but that would be missing the point. The point is that, yes, it is irritating to have that type of disruption, but if you get worked up about the fact that someone is using their property in a way they are completely entitled to do only hurts you in the long run. For the sake of your sanity, it's best to focus on those things you can control.