Kraft takeover of Cadbury

[Magpie]

Chocolate is not a strategic industry, and of their 40,000 worldwide staff only some 5,000 or so actually work in the UK. The impact on the economy will hence not be that significant, plus UK based shareholders are going to get paid for this transaction with the money they received being re-invested. My rational brain tells me that this is no different to any other transaction - yet I am feeling sad today that another piece of British history has been sold off, and no doubt in a few years will be but a memory. Anyone who was a child in the UK probably has an emotional attachment to Cadbury, whether it was eggs at Easter, presents from grandparents, or what you spent hoarded pocket money on.

It seems that we don't seem to put much weight on the non-financial in the UK (whether it is sentimental, cultural, historical) when judging somethings worth. This is why the Brits allow historic pubs to shut, supermarkets to drive out local shops, identical appartments to replace village greens. We have allowed this to happen to our country in a way the French, for example, wouldn't. Thoughts?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Conflating a lot of things there magpie, not all of which are related - although I hear where you are coming from

I'm not sure for example wether the French would be able to prevent any of their companies being taken over

And the demise of the british pub can largely be laid at the feet of the British people who stopped going in numbers (a trend in evidence a long time before the smoking ban)

But I do recall when all the building societies were trying to become banks and asking their customers (by offering them a couple of hundred quid) that your average British punter seemed keener on the dosh than on any benefits of being a stakeholder in a mutual

I hear a lot of emoting about british culture but it appears to be of the not-wanting-to-contribute-to-the-culture-just-y'know-claiming-the-good-bits variety

As for Cadburys going? Any takeover is likely to see job losses. If Cadbury took over Rowntree instead of nestle's the same would happen and it would still be unfortunate for those losing their jobs but at least we wouldn't have to worry about the "foreigners" argument in the press and * slaps forehead * facebook petitions

[????]

All good points Sean, agree.

As Magpie points out, a lot of emotion about a multi-national company whose workforce is largely outside of the UK and whose 'value add' is largely in marketing...confectionary is hardly the cutting edge of modern manufacturing. We are still good in some high value sectors - Design, hi-tech manufacturing, Aerospace, Armanents (not making any moral judgement on this), top end education, biotechnology, pharmacuticals, creative services, etc and dare I say it now still Financial Services. Despite tending towards non-intervention I would like the state to incentivise and encourage more investment in alternative energy sources as we need badly to get decent skills/technology and knowledge in the 'green economy'.

[Magpie]

The point I think I'm trying to make is some things like a local pub or a post office have an intrinsic value that cannot be captured by assessing pure financial performance. To save them it either needs local people to intervene, either be being prepared to spend more or make more effort - perhaps we see this in East Dulwich with the desire to buy from local butchers and greengrocers rather than just going to the supermarket. The alternative, which is the French model, is to get the state to protect them - they did, for example, class Danone as a essential industry to protect it from takeover when Kraft came knocking a few years ago.

Part of this is about the average British punter preferring to pay for cheap cans of lager from the supermarket to drink in front of the football on Sky, rather than locally brewed beer, but lets not forget the forces that are often mounted against local small businesses (which clearly Cadbury's wasn't) whether faced with excessive legislation, or aggressive, large and powerful chain stores and/or multi-nationals. Actually booze is a great example, the government prefers to crack down on happy hours, and pile tax on the pint in the pub, but not attack the supermarkets for selling crates of beer for a tenner.

[SeanMacGabhann]

On the other side of the coin tho, you have seen on this forum how people have been very supportive of Vals shop up by the library.

I know when rumours of a supermarket started they were out of their minds with worry, but people have been so willing to be supportive they are currently on a high

I guess it shows that actions > lip-service

[KidKruger]

When the Sainsbury's at Dog Kennel Hill was mooted in the early '90s there was a lot of activity locally against it. Of course the supermarket/cronies got their way, then we lost our fishmongers(x2 I think), butchers (x3 or 4), many grocers @3) from LL and surrounding areas over a period of months to a year or so. 'Dave the Butcher' led a campaign against it which was very popular. There was not the 'power' of EDF at that time ! For a while I missed being able to stroll down the high street have chats in the shops and get all my meat/veg/fish stuffs in one local tour. ED has come along since then and we have replaced the basic provisions shops (albeit with slightly flashier versions) that were once actually gone. So, where we at one point had lost many of the important local shops, we have reinstated them which I think speaks volumes for the people down this way.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Indeed KK, but if the people at the time were GENUINELY against the DKH store, it wouldn't have succeeded

It reminds me of the current action by Man U fans to suggest boycotting the ground until the Glazers leave - talk is easy, actions are different

So again, I'm inclined to think British people like to moan about things but are less keen on doing anything which might actually influence the outcome

[KidKruger]

Sean I think people were genuinely against the store they were just, ultimately, too lazy to react loudly enough.

I think everyone was genuinely surprised when all the local stores had to shut, although they said that would happen as part of the reasoning against the supermarket they didn't really know if it would until it was too late. But it did.

[Brendan]

What type of effect (if any) did the local stores shutting down have on the desirability of the area, house prices etc?

[KidKruger]

Brendan, house prices were rock bottom across the nation anyway I believe, ie. the house i had bought 2-3 years earlier was worth less. If you were new in the area you would not be aware of the changes until speaking with someone. Don't get me wrong, it's not as though LL and surrounding streets was a some kind of empty 'ghost town' with tumbleweed bumbling down the pavements and boarded up stores ! Hope I didn't paint THAT picture !

[womanofdulwich]

oh come on! If Sainsburys in Dog Kennel hill had not opened you had to go to Vauxhall Sainsburys or Safeways in Crystal Palace- maybe Tesco in Brixton came a bit later. Try working and having a young family, you will soon come to the conclusion a car park outside the shop with shopping trolleys that take babies is the way to go for your big shop.Plenty of "pleasure" shopping at local shops at weekends. I am sure Sainsburys opened mid to late 1980's in Dog Kennel Hill. Dulwich village lost its butchers and greengrocers at the same time. Maybe bakers too if I remember. Lordship Lane has had a renaissance since then.

[????]

In fact, and although I'm generalising, on average independent grocers/butchers and other retailers are GENERALLY far better than the ones that preceded them...those that survived upped their game and newbies saw they had to offer competition to the big boys. In areas that aren't competing purely on price independents (although there are less of them) depend to be far better in terms of quality/service/range etc than before the 'evil supermarkets'*

*see also banks

[KidKruger]

???? - yeah I agree the quality of the independents has improved locally and as you say not just based on undercutting competition (which they would likely fail at against orgs like Sainsburys !)

womanof - the store opened early 90's, around 1992. No I did not go to Vauxhall shopping I did it on foot on LL and side streets off it, just goes to shwo we can have different experiences of the same areadepn. on our own individual circumstances. I would not be so bold as to say one is right and the other is worong.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I wonder if the quality of the independants improving has more to do with Ryanair and easyjet tho?

Seriously, more people travelling abroad has surely meant they have seen what small local shops CAN be like and have driven the demand for improvement as well

[????]

I agree and I'd add Jamie/Hugh/Gordon et al to that list too Sean

[SeanMacGabhann]

True, good point

I wonder if those stories about us loving to watch these shows whilst eating frozen food is true tho?

[Magpie]

It feels like to me that there is a growing trend towards local produce, quality produce - be it organic or low intensity farming, as well as a revival of interest in local/tradtiional food cultures in the UK. However, this is probably a very distorted view and reflects the people I hang out with, my own personal interests and living in ED.

[SteveT]

I have never rated cadbury products,

but the Bournville estate in Birmingham which was created for the cadbury employees, has been for the best part of a century, a model award winning estate.

[mockney piers]

Ooh interesting, constructive debate. How nice.

I would also add in response to a minor earlier point, that the local brewing industry is a as healhy as it's been in decades.

In part as response to the bland lagers and dull bitters that was certanly all I recall in pubs in the 90s and early 00s.

In part thanks to the supermarkets if truth be told, though obviously theyre only doing it in response tothe increase in popularity.

I know what you mean about the slow death of the local pub, and I have certainly done more than my bit to keep them going. I rcommend hoopers who always have a selection of small brewery beers available.

[Magpie]

The revival in British Brewing has been pretty dramatic. It also makes an interesting model for others. The UK superbrewers such as Bass or Scottish and Newcastle were bought out by multinationals, and basically ignored the bitter market. This in turn led to smaller independents and mid size brewers stepping in. The likes of Greene King, Adnams, Shephard Neame, Fullers have all benefitted, while beneath them there is healthy growth of micro breweries. There also seems to be a level of cooperation and goodwill in the industry between companies. Finally, Labour introduced tax breaks to smaller brewers in the early noughties which has certainly helped. We are now at the stage where we have thriving localised and regional producers, alongside a handful of national beers, without too much concentration. Now they just have to get the heathen foreigners to like real beer and start exporting the stuff, and we then have a case study of a genuine grass roots industrial recovery in the UK.

[Brendan]

A revival helped no end by the fact that 10 ? 5 years ago about the only beer you could get in most pubs in the uk was 1 particularly horrid example of badly made, piss flavoured lager, sold under a range of different brands.

Which is perhaps also a cynical metaphor for the current political landscape.

[Roll Deep]

Ha ha!!

[SteveT]

Magpie wrote:- The revival in British Brewing has been pretty dramatic. It also makes an interesting model for others. The UK superbrewers such as Bass or Scottish and Newcastle were bought out by multinationals, and basically ignored the bitter market. This in turn led to smaller independents and mid size brewers stepping in. The likes of Greene King, Adnams, Shephard Neame, Fullers have all benefitted, while beneath them there is healthy growth of micro breweries. There also seems to be a level of cooperation and goodwill in the industry between companies. Finally, Labour introduced tax breaks to smaller brewers in the early noughties which has certainly helped. We are now at the stage where we have thriving localised and regional producers, alongside a handful of national beers, without too much concentration. Now they just have to get the heathen foreigners to like real beer and start exporting the stuff, and we then have a case study of a genuine grass roots industrial recovery in the UK.

I really did not know that Cadbury a well known Quaker family, manufactured beers?

If they are not brewers then isn't this off topic?

[HAL9000]

SteveT Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> isn't this off topic?

Hardly worth bothering. Of the twenty-four posts on this page, only six of them (including yours and mine) mention Cadbury.

[Roll Deep]

Cadbury.