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don't feint at the prospect of longer hours or extra commitment / support required at times,

- Wanting summat for nowt, KK? If you're the only one defining "decent" then nobody - from here, there or anywhere - will ever be able to really know what you mean.

(Faint)

I agree with uncleglen - Labour has barely and rarely shown itself friend of the working class these past thirty years.

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Labour are responsible for the dire state of the

> 'working classes'. Failure to educate in useful

> trades (preferring to lower educational standards

> and get a massive increase in useless university

> courses)- then, what a coincidence, the skills

> gap was filled by immigrants...much cheaper option

> for Labourjust throw the doors open 2 years before

> France and Germany. Because the middle classes and

> property developers demand cheap labour they use

> the much cheaper options e.g. 'electricians'

> working for ?20 a day then getting the qualified

> English electrician in to check and issue the

> certificate....

> Anyway all these 'benefits' are erased by the

> increase in crime and demands on services.

> There is nothing bigoted about this JoeLeg of the

> fascist left -just practicalities, the fact that

> you can't get a doctor's appointment, can't get

> your kids into a local school, and your rent is

> sky high...



You see, you make some valid points, a lot of which I agree with, and none of which actually conflict with my argument...


...and then you call me a member of the 'facist left'?! I'm not quite sure what that is, but I can guarantee you that you've made assumptions about my politics and allowed that to colour the view of my opinion.


Not that it's anyone's business on here, but I'm not exactly a left-winger. Moreover, my position on immigrants is informed by many years of personal experience; I don't care what politicians say, I prefer the evidence of my own eyes.

You're right about Labour slashing the apprentice courses and skilled training. But it didn't start with them; and I personally believe that it is a poor person who sits back and allows someone else to 'take their job'.

The world owes no one a living, no one is entitled to a job. We getcth through hard work and commitment, and the simple fact is that the laziest, most work-shy and unreliable group I've encountered in the last twenty years has been the British under-25's.


So why is this? They say bad workmen blame their tools; is all of this to be blamed on a lack of training and staff willing to work for less? Well, in part of course it is. That hasn't helped, and I won't deny that. But couple it with the horrendous rise in 'celebrity culture' that tells people they can make money without doing any real work, and a frankly general sense of entitlement amount at young people (not all of them, but still far too many), and you have perfect conditions for us to need immigrants. I'm sorry, but the locals here have to accept some responsibility for what has happened.


I'm sick and tired of British kids who buckle as soon as the work gets hard, who claim to be 'tired' when they've done an 8 hour shift, who make up excuses to leave early or not come in - and I know when they're doing it. So tell me uncleglen, what do I do about that? Should I cut them more slack? Do they get a pass because successive governments screwed them? Or should I tell them to knuckle down, and work hard like the rest of us? Seriously, what am I supposed to do when the British applicants are frequently the weakest?


('Facist left'? Really? Weak mate, weak...and very wrong!)

8 hours a day is plenty. If you can't organise workload to allow your staff at least a semblance of home/leisure life, you are the one who is failing, perhaps. Presenteeism is rife and wasteful: just sticking around so the boss can see you after your shift finishes is far from being efficient.

How do you define "weakest"? Could it have anything to do with "not willing to do everything/anything the boss says"?

(I agree with you about the pernicious aspect of "sleb culture" and hope for an end to it soon.)

Nigello Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 8 hours a day is plenty. If you can't organise

> workload to allow your staff at least a semblance

> of home/leisure life, you are the one who is

> failing, perhaps.


You need to remember I'm talking about professional restaurant kitchens. 8 hour days are rare; if you don't like that then please allow us to charge more for the food so we can hire more staff (I accept that's a different conversation).


Presenteeism is rife and

> wasteful: just sticking around so the boss can see

> you after your shift finishes is far from being

> efficient.


Not sure what your point here is, but it doesn't happen in my world.


> How do you define "weakest"? Could it have

> anything to do with "not willing to do

> everything/anything the boss says"


I define weak as being unable to do the job as required, while claiming that you are, which is a problem because the job has certain requirements; it is hard physical labour which requires you to have a brain and use it. It is mentally and physically draining.

Look, my staff have been with me a long time, and I think I'm a pretty good boss; I try to accommodate all requests for time off and holidays and I'm considerate when writing the rota (my wife says I'm too considerate). But a job has requirements - all jobs do - and in my industry it means long unsocial hours and several years learning the trade from the bottom.

In short, there are no short cuts to doing it right. I reckon if you think you could name several other industries with similar demands. To top it off these kids watch Jaime and Gordon and reckon that a year out of cooking school they're worth ?28,000 pa! And ask tnt to wash dishes or mop a floor, and they pout like my kids!


So yes, give me the immigrants. When you go out, the likelihood of it being a Brit cooking your food is pretty low, because a lot of other chefs agree with me.


> (I agree with you about the pernicious aspect of

> "sleb culture" and hope for an end to it soon.)


Yeah, but I'm not optimistic about this one - reality tv has a lot to answer for.

"8 hours a day is plenty. If you can't organise workload to allow your staff at least a semblance of home/leisure life, you are the one who is failing, perhaps."

Yes perhaps in an environment where there's no competition, no reducing margin and the luxury of thinking first what hours everyone would like to work, before you commit to deals. Under those conditions you're probably spot on - but I've no clue where that world is.


"8 hours a day is plenty. If you can't organise workload to allow your staff at least a semblance of home/leisure life, you are the one who is failing, perhaps. Presenteeism is rife and wasteful: just sticking around so the boss can see you after your shift finishes is far from being efficient."

I think if you measure your people well you know pretty soon who's just hanging around in the office to 'do stuff' but not really contributing. It's naive in the extreme to think that commitment can be faked by just being in an office for many hrs. But I've said a couple of times my examples are local to what I see and not general, they're people who I'm lucky enough to work with and the dossers have left the building. I'd love some balance in my team demographically, but I've gotta get the best job done that I can.

Wow this thread runs off at interesting tangents.


So I guess many of you posing have many years experience in the job market.


I've asked my son whether they have lathes at school. What is a lathe he asked?


We had loads, and woodworking tools. That was then. There is no manufacturing industry now where I am from. My father thought that I should get a good aprenticehsip, and perhaps become a tool maker. Tools aren'd made by skilled craftspeople any more, they are done by computer (CAD) and even then there is little call for this particular skill nowadays. This wasn't labour failing to train up the working class. It was the general change in society, the move away from manufacturing and the like. Successive governments not a Labour party conspiracy.


And the other thing we dreamed of was shorter working weeks. Which was sort of happening but seems to have gone horribly in reverse, which I can't really understand (and shorter working weeks in our neighbouring countries, who manage to be more productive.


None of the above seems to involve immigrants as far as I am aware. Oh they are taking our jobs by working longer? They are taking our jobs by being better trained?

Some interesting points.


Quick question JoeLeg on hours. The Working Time Directive says that no employee can be forced to work more than 48 hours a week. Some jobs have opt out clauses because they require more than that, but they tend to be higher skilled, higher paid jobs. In addition, every employee must have at least 11 hours off between working shifts, and one day off in every seven.


I think there are a lot of employers that flout these laws because their employees don't know their rights. I am sure you abide by them Joe.


The only way for workers to protect themselves and make sure that employment law is kept to, is by informing themsleves of their rights and to join unions who have the resources to legally prosecute employers who flout the law.


On productivity. There's no doubt there are problems there, and some of those problems are cultural. To be fair there are many under 25's who work very hard, but yes there are also some who expect to walk into well paid work without doing anything for it. Some of that is also the fallout from the culture of 'cradle to grave'. An expectation that the state can provide everything and yes I think sucessive governments, both Labour and Conservative have damaged both the state education system, and failed to keep up apprenticeships, esp in construction.


Also, 50% of young people going to University is also setting them up to fail. 50% of new jobs are not at graduate levels, neither in skils nor pay. So again a level of expectation not based on reality. New Labour in their efforts to create a level playing field of educational achievement, created more problems than they solved. And there is no doubt educational standards have fallen, especially in numeracy and literacy. Some universities have returned to entrance exams to figure out just who can actually spell and add up! But it still remains that the top universities are the top universities.


I think it's pretty obvious by the age of 14 who is interested in an academic pathway, and who would be better on a vocational one. This idea that all yooung people can reach the same goals is nonsense. We are failing children by filling them with dreams they can never achieve. So I for one would be for the return of apprenticeships at 14, and that might just also save some kids from crime down the line too. Waiting until they are 18 to engage is just too late.

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Some interesting points.

>

> Quick question JoeLeg on hours. The Working Time

> Directive says that no employee can be forced to

> work more than 48 hours a week. Some jobs have opt

> out clauses because they require more than that,

> but they tend to be higher skilled, higher paid

> jobs. In addition, every employee must have at

> least 11 hours off between working shifts, and one

> day off in every seven.

>

> I think there are a lot of employers that flout

> these laws because their employees don't know

> their rights. I am sure you abide by them Joe.


My bosses - the owners - are absolute sticklers for the law (one of the reasons I like working for them), so nobody is pressured to sign the opt-out, and those that don't are respected. I have one guy who says he wants exactly 40 hours every week, for example, and generally he gets it.

Most of us have signed it, generally because the staff like the option to work like nutters if they choose, as some are on hourly pay, and all of us have our cut of the service charge linked to how much we worked (it's the fairest way). But to answer your question, no, emphatically no one in my kitchen is forced to work more than 48 hours except in exceptional circumstances, eg chronic staff shortage due to illness, as we had during January for example.


>

> The only way for workers to protect themselves and

> make sure that employment law is kept to, is by

> informing themsleves of their rights and to join

> unions who have the resources to legally prosecute

> employers who flout the law.


Agreed, and in the catering industry, which has long had too many who flout these laws, there are now grass roots movements afoot to change this. I believe we will see positive change in this area within five years. This is long overdue, but when so many workers are transient, foreign, apathetic or just too tired to care, it takes time to organise. The internet forums for the industry have been instrumental in allowing flow of ideas and opinions.


>

> On productivity. There's no doubt there are

> problems there, and some of those problems are

> cultural. To be fair there are many under 25's who

> work very hard, but yes there are also some who

> expect to walk into well paid work without doing

> anything for it. Some of that is also the fallout

> from the culture of 'cradle to grave'. An

> expectation that the state can provide everything

> and yes I think sucessive governments, both Labour

> and Conservative have damaged both the state

> education system, and failed to keep up

> apprenticeships, esp in construction.


Completely agree.



>

> Also, 50% of young people going to University is

> also setting them up to fail.


One of the worst things government ever did was to tell people that 50% of them were good enough for uni. In doing so they destroyed the idea that vocational-based training and apprenticeships were worth anything, as suddenly everyone thought that university was the only valid education. And it totally undermined mant degree courses.


50% of new jobs are

> not at graduate levels, neither in skils nor pay.

> So again a level of expectation not based on

> reality. New Labour in their efforts to create a

> level playing field of educational achievement,

> created more problems than they solved. And there

> is no doubt educational standards have fallen,

> especially in numeracy and literacy. Some

> universities have returned to entrance exams to

> figure out just who can actually spell and add up!

> But it still remains that the top universities are

> the top universities.

>

> I think it's pretty obvious by the age of 14 who

> is interested in an academic pathway, and who

> would be better on a vocational one. This idea

> that all yooung people can reach the same goals is

> nonsense. We are failing children by filling them

> with dreams they can never achieve. So I for one

> would be for the return of apprenticeships at 14,

> and that might just also save some kids from crime

> down the line too. Waiting until they are 18 to

> engage is just too late.


Again, completely agree. And to bring it back on topic, if the country was able to install that cultural 'shift' in the mentality of young people, coupled with the realisation that you get nothing for free in this world, they might find immigrants have less desire to come here. But until then, as I said before, give me those immigrants. British youth isn't ready yet.

All good points Joe. There used to be a time where a 40 hour week was standard for everyone with extra hours being classed as overtime. It was a simple arrangement that everyone understood. Now we have buy out contracts and zero hours contracts etc, both of which mostly favour the employer over the employee. The government often cites that some people want zero hours contracts but forgets about those that have no choice but to accept them.


Again, lack of job security also plays a part in the employment options of people. So I'd also argue that many of the jobs that immigrants take, aren't secure enough nor pay enough to support say a young family. But I'd also add that in my home, as soon as I and my siblings were old enough, we all got Saturday jobs, and then weekend jobs etc. They were menial jobs but it was impressed upon us by our parents that if we want things, we need to work for them. So parenting also has a role to play.


I grew up on a farm, where the work is never done, but I wonder what a child who grows up in a jobless household learns about the world of work.

I'm often struck by the 40 hr week myth, even when I had a 'job' the hours were based around the tasks and projects we delivered. I don't ever remember a 40 hrs and gone week, but the job was fun while I was interested in it


I'm also aware that immigration throws a survival/jeopardy feeling into people. They know all too well the risk they face at not 'making it' here, to have to return home is to be defeated. And that drive is very powerful and present in this wave of migrants. I wonder though if that same ethic and drive will be passed on, wether the second generation will share that drive


Culture matters too, not all immigrants are driven by the same needs or social/cultural obligations to succeed. Some want their offspring to thrive and become the Doctors and Lawyers of the future, some are here to get away from how awful the place they left was. Economic migration vs fleeing your country because your life depends on it.

Fell off the thread but yes, that was exactly my point.


miga Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hang on, hang on, LondonMix was responding to

> uncleglen's generalisation about East Europeans

> living many to a room and sending child benefit

> back, and the previous thrust of the discussion

> about EU (but really, Eastern European) migrants

> undercutting the "native" workforce for cheap

> jobs.....and as is well known, the way to cut down

> a claimed rule is to show an example that

> disproves it.

>

> But I agree with you - there are good workers and

> bad in every ethnic group (obvs.). And indeed -

> most Eastern Europeans I know are ones I work

> with, where they do highly skilled, and highly

> paid, technical jobs.

As one of those high-end migrants I've noticed that for a certain type of British person I'm not seen as an immigrant. Genuinely, they don't see me that way. I'm an expat which is some how different (though of course its not).


malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Interesting debate with thankfully only a few

> rabid contributors. Most excellent, Blah Blah.

>

> So two things happened to me this week. Firstly I

> started this thread before Question Time and I

> knew that this would be the big issue. I was

> disappointed but not surprised that there was a

> big anti-immigrant sentiment amongst the

> audience.

>

> Secondly a 'mate' from an outer borough told a

> joke within earshot. What is the similarlity

> between sperm and immigrants. You get millions of

> each but only one works. It wasn't even funny

> forty years ago when manuy of us indulged in

> sexist and racist jokes (think Irish for many of

> us).

>

> The irony of the situation was that this was a

> badminton match with two or our team immigrants

> (Iran and NZ - the Kiwi is proabably the most

> racist/homophobic of the lot of us) plaing a team

> with three brown people. Two of whom were recent

> immigrants, in high end jobs, from India. So

> forty years ago it would have been six white vs

> six white. But now chappy lives in a much more

> intigrated and multiracial world yet still sounds

> like he is from the 60s or 70s. "Oh Malumbu

> doesn't like these sorts of jokes" Malumbu

> replies "you know what you are". Sadly my

> experience of Bromley is that this is common

> behaviour and if Bromley is representative of

> middle England we really are screwed when the vote

> swings to exit due to xenophobia.

>

> Back to the thread, FFS we are the

> class/generation who want things at rock bottom

> prices, which of coures means low wages for those

> prepared to take them. One could take a stand and

> pay more. But then as the thread debates would be

> unlikely to get better quality. Like an episode of

> Family Guy when they insist that everything is

> made in the USA, and it is all faulty. Except my

> brilliant British made HiFi of course

hmmm. Does an ex pat allow you to be racist, homophobic etc? Based on my sample of two out of three of the Kiwi's I've known well.


And according to the Grauniad only white people can be ex pats. I thought it was all rather colonial anyway - Brits moving to the areas of the globe formally coloured in pink.


http://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/mar/13/white-people-expats-immigrants-migration

I don't think only white people can be seen as expats at all. I do think highly skilled, culturally similar immigrants aren't seen as the same danger / threat as lower skilled immigrants particularly those form non-Western countries.


A lot of the angst around immigration is really cultural. The jobs thing always feels like a way for people to rationalize their discomfort.

I don't disagree with the general point the guardian is making but I don't think it falls cleanly along race lines. I think an Asian American working in the city is seen just as much as an expat as a white Frenchman. Its more about not being poor and country of origin than about skin color.

Yep, it has nothing to do with the colour of your skin. That's just tiresome Guardian PC bleating. Anyone working for a large multinational will have come across non-white expats at some point.


The word "immigrant" tends to connote moving from a poorer country for a better standard of living, regardless of race.

I know it's not common usage, or not as common, but I always think of an expat as someone who's been sent to another country by their company. Even if you come from a first world country and do a professional job, if you applied for it on the "open job market", I'd say that's still being an economic immigrant. I'm probably fighting a losing battle.(See also people from first world countries with unfashionable governments claiming somewhat ironically they're "exiles").
I basically agree, most people use the word expat to descibe someone working abroad in a skilled/professional role for a period of time (not sure if it makes much difference whether it's with an existing employer though). If they decide to stay permanently or apply for citizenship then you could say they have immigrated.

Emigration is the act of leaving your own country while immigration is the act of entering another country. All migrants both emigrate and immigrate by definition.


Expat has connotations of impermanence.


But more than that it has a subtle connotation of approval. Expats aren't feared and loathed in the same way as immigrants even though they work in some of the most lucrative paying jobs in the country.


Most people refer to me as an expat (if it comes up) and while I entertain the idea of going back to the US one day, I've lived in London for 11 years and am married to an Englishman, own a house etc etc.

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