Immigration

[malumbu]

My apologies if there is a thread already. I did search honest guvnor.

So much of the debate on Brexit on this site is on the economics. From my understanding the economic hit either way will be managable, Exit presenting the greatest risk. As a casual observer (I dunno why we are having this referendum in the first place) I expect that the nationwide debate will shift more and more to immigration.

I was just having a casual thought when looking out on building work every bladdy where. We have a low interest rate. We have spiraling house prices. A logical outcmoe is that home owners will invest more in their properties.

We have less stringent planning laws. This is what we (or some of us) voted for.

So with all this building where does the labour come from?

Compare that to the 1950s and 60s. Booming economy. Manufacturing industry needs the labour. Where does some of this come from? Much of manufacturing goes on exports so a win win situation. Yes we also needed labour for the expanding NHS, to build the roads to connect our towns and cities, to drive the trains and buses to get us to work.

Is this an overly simplistic assessment from someone who has not studied post war history and politics?

Anyway my concern is that this is going to get very polarised on the impact on immigration. I expect scare stories in the media, particularly the more rabid aspects of it, will grow. From my limited engagement with acquaintances outside of the Metropolis they are already full of views on how it is all the EUs fault.

Do reassure me otherwise. And do educate me too. Preferably before questiontime.

[Seabag]

I've two personal experiences to offer. I previously worked in the interior design business, on site with the fitting teams, in the design studios too. We delivered a very top end product in and around London and parts of the U.K.

Initially all our fit/build teams were British, but slowly to begin with the Eastern European guys started to make in-roads onto teams, eventually running their own show. And thank fekk, for in the much greater part the skill levels shot up, along with the rate and output too. So much so, the design and fit regime changed in such a great degree, due to the skill levels on-site. More bang for the buck and the whole industry has benifitted from this, it's been the same across the board in my experience.

We've now become accustomed to this 'standard' of delivery, were it to stop or slow I feel the economy might follow

Secondly, I changed career about 4 years ago. I now work in the restaurant industry. Many kitchen teams are immigrants, Eastern Europe, Africa, South America all feature strongly. Again the work ethic is noteable, the skill sets very well honed, but the top jobs are usually UK origin, or Western Europeans.

Both industries now rely on an influx of workers from outside the UK, both industries are strong on developmental growth. Any slowing of either could make a big difference in our success as a stand alone state

[Blah Blah]

I think a starting point is demographics. During the 50s and 60s, we had the Malthaus Pyramid theory. We could pay for a welfare system, NHS etc because the proportion of those of working age was more than double the no of people over 65. We also had near full employment with good average rates of pay compared to living costs and higher taxes. The post war boom is probably the only golden period in those terms. And we had immigration then, to fill the jobs surplus and to make sure the working population was high enough to support the rest.

Today the proposition is very different. There are almost as many people over 65 as there are in full time work. There were two reasons why New Labour were pro immigration. One was to increase the tax paying workforce, and two was becuse of skills shortages, especially in construction and the NHS.

That seems odd doesn't it when we have so many adults of working age not in employment?

Skills shortages and too few people of working age in work, are in some ways different problems. And both come from a lack of forward planning. In terms of economics, we have moved from a long term economy to a short term one. With that comes reactionary politics, rather than visionary. It can also be argued that part of the success of the NHS is in the improved health and lifespan of the nation, but those three million extra over 75s (since the 60s) are in turn pushing up the cost of the NHS.

We have two options. Either we get the number of people in work up, wages up, and tax receipts up, to restore the Malthaus Pyramid, and that means increasing population along with other things, or we reduce the cost of the welfare state, with all the consequences that brings. The other option is to increase taxes of course (not a popular one with voters).

Immigration has huge benefits. But it has become the scapegoat for deeper economic issues that are more to do with changing demographics and the rise of competition from a global economy.

[Nigello]

As well as the economic issues - both good and bad - there are cultural and social issues that do not get as much prominence. It is because that would mean talking about people as people and not people as money-producing units.

[Blah Blah]

This is true, but it's also worth pointing out that every wave of migrants has faced animosity since the dawn of time.

[Nigello]

I would say that the "waves" were generated by different causes (pogroms, persecution, invitation) and were also much weaker in strength than at the current time. Free movement is a great idea but if the hosts can't/won't keep up in terms of providing infrastructure (both physical and social/cultural) its attractiveness fades.

[Blah Blah]

Not sure that is true Nigello. There are many points in history where invasion dramatically changed the landscape far more than anything we see now.

Infrastructure is the job of government to maintain. If you have sucessive governments that are reactionary, rather than visionary, invest little in infrastructure and services etc, then you get into trouble. Every government since the 80s has known about the increase in life expectancy, has seen increased levels of people living alone and the fragmentation of families, seen the economy become more and more south east centric, and has done little to plan for it, because they believed the free market should solve these problems. The free market doesn't care about anything but profit.

[TheCat]

I'm not advocating an overall view either way, but leaving the EU doesnt mean that no immigrants will ever come to this country again. It simply means the numbers and skills are controlled, no?

Yes, there may be 'timing issues' given extra bureaucracy of when and where the labour is required, that would be more quickly solved by a free market. But if we need plumbers for example, then surely people with plumbing skills would be prioritized in the immigration system....

[Blah Blah]

Only if we leave the EU completely. Having any kind of trade deal will mean still accepting the free movement of people, as it does for Norway and Switzerland.

[JohnL]

I think perhaps we are looking too much short term.

Leaving the EU is forever - 30 years, 100 years. That's the debate.

Are we going to link up with the commonwealth countries (the outers say we shamefully abandoned them). ?

[Jeremy]

The UK is dependent on migrant workers.. from highly skilled knowledge based industries, down to the daily services we all depend on. Surely leaving the EU will just add layers of bureaucracy to the process of hiring workers, with a similar net result. Doesn't seem ideal to me.

Also for illegal immigrants working cash-in-hand... leaving the EU won't make any difference will it?

[miga]

*

[Nigello]

Nature abhors a vacuum so if cheap labour (for that is what a lot of newly-arrived immigrants constitute, to the benefit of big business which can keep wages low because it knows there is always another Pole/Lithuanian/Colombian to do unattractive jobs) in the shape of immigrants goes or is reduced, why wouldn't they be quickly replaced with those that are already here - whatever place they or their forbears may have come from?

London is stratified and segmented in unhealthy ways and I don't see it getting more integrated anytime soon. This can't be healthy and best practice for either the established or the newly arrived.

Being able to have a cheap cleaner (I've never had one and doubt I ever will, cheap or otherwise), hop into an Uber (ditto) or get a takeaway delivered (double ditto) isn't a sound argument for unfettered immigration: why should one's middle-class keenness for cheap indulgences maintain a precarious and badly paid and worse-cushioned serving class who, because of the ubiquity of cheap labour, may never be ever to better themselves?

Is it healthy that certain jobs and roles will mostly be taken by people from certain countries or backgrounds? It creates precedents that stick in the national psyche and which may well dictate one's perception and one's action.

[uncleglen]

Leaving the EU will not make any difference to the black economy (i.e. illegals and others working cash in hand) because illegals are not EU citizens. From what I know (as my sister is an estate agent in East London), the east Europeans rent out houses and live 2 or 3 to a room- their families are in eastern Europe. They can afford to undercut the rates of pay of indigenous electricians,plumbers etc because the indigenous have a mortgage, children etc and do a tax return and cannot afford to work on the cheap. They send money home as well as child benefit...so not only are we losing jobs and suffering pressures on front line services, but money is flowing out of the UK.

[LondonMix]

One of my polish contractors lives in Mitcham with his polish girlfriend in a one bed flat. She works in sales. My polish carpenter lives in SE London with his wife and kids. I know this because I talk to trades people who work for me.

I think the idea that most of the polish workers here are able to undercut because they are living basically in guest houses without family is a stretch. Anyone who has worked with British tradesmen and Polish tradesmen know that they are cheaper because they are faster. No faffing about, not turning up etc. Also, they are better trained / skilled which also allows for better and faster work.

[Jeremy]

That's a huge generalisation LondonMix. Yes there was a wave of Polish builders 10-15 years ago who seemed very hard working and earned a good reputation, but I'm not convinced it still holds true. There are good ones and bad ones (i.e. just like every other nationality).

[miga]

Hang on, hang on, LondonMix was responding to uncleglen's generalisation about East Europeans living many to a room and sending child benefit back, and the previous thrust of the discussion about EU (but really, Eastern European) migrants undercutting the "native" workforce for cheap jobs.....and as is well known, the way to cut down a claimed rule is to show an example that disproves it.

But I agree with you - there are good workers and bad in every ethnic group (obvs.). And indeed - most Eastern Europeans I know are ones I work with, where they do highly skilled, and highly paid, technical jobs.

[red devil]

Uncleglen wrote - ''...the indigenous have a mortgage, children etc and do a tax return and cannot afford to work on the cheap''

Show me an 'indigenous' tradesman who hasn't taken a cash in hand deal and not declared it, and I'll show you a liar. Anyone would think you were trying to paint a whiter than white picture...

[apbremer]

Talking to a lorry driver from the Midlands~children, mortgage and a good employer on a salary of ?28,000pa.. However as soon as a vacancy occurs it is filled by a Pole who will work all hours for ?15,000pa. and apparently live five to a room. What happens when Turkey joins and they work for half that? I'm only asking as I'm sure that Blah Blah will have the well rehearsed answers. It seems to me that the respectable working class are being shafted by the EU (and our) elite who are safely ensconced in their unelected, corrupt Brussels bubble. I thought that Labour and that daft Old Fool Corbyn were supposed to represent the workers but he is all for the whole rotten edifice.

[Blah Blah]

And you already posted that nonsense on another thread. If workers want to protect rates of pay, they need to unionise and take on employers. It's not the Pole or the Turk (and there are lots of Turkish people already living and working here btw) who set rates of pay, but the employer in a buyers market. Lots of people have been laid off only to see their old jobs readvertise at lower rates of pay, often employing younger people, who are cheaper to employ as well.

So they EU are shafting working people are they? Workers have the following protections because of the EU;

Health and safety at work: general rights and obligations, workplaces, work equipment, specific risks and vulnerable workers.

Equal opportunities for women and men: equal treatment at work, pregnancy, maternity leave, parental leave protection against discrimination based on sex, race, religion, age, disability and sexual orientation.

Labour law: part-time work, fixed-term contracts, working hours, employment of young people, informing and consulting employees.

Individual EU countries must make sure that their national laws protect these rights laid down by EU employment laws (Directives).

And then of course there's the people kept in jobs by the ?200bn of exports to the EU annual.

Yeah right, whatever has the EU ever done for working people.

[malumbu]

Interesting debate with thankfully only a few rabid contributors. Most excellent, Blah Blah.

So two things happened to me this week. Firstly I started this thread before Question Time and I knew that this would be the big issue. I was disappointed but not surprised that there was a big anti-immigrant sentiment amongst the audience.

Secondly a 'mate' from an outer borough told a joke within earshot. What is the similarlity between sperm and immigrants. You get millions of each but only one works. It wasn't even funny forty years ago when manuy of us indulged in sexist and racist jokes (think Irish for many of us).

The irony of the situation was that this was a badminton match with two or our team immigrants (Iran and NZ - the Kiwi is proabably the most racist/homophobic of the lot of us) plaing a team with three brown people. Two of whom were recent immigrants, in high end jobs, from India. So forty years ago it would have been six white vs six white. But now chappy lives in a much more intigrated and multiracial world yet still sounds like he is from the 60s or 70s. "Oh Malumbu doesn't like these sorts of jokes" Malumbu replies "you know what you are". Sadly my experience of Bromley is that this is common behaviour and if Bromley is representative of middle England we really are screwed when the vote swings to exit due to xenophobia.

Back to the thread, FFS we are the class/generation who want things at rock bottom prices, which of coures means low wages for those prepared to take them. One could take a stand and pay more. But then as the thread debates would be unlikely to get better quality. Like an episode of Family Guy when they insist that everything is made in the USA, and it is all faulty. Except my brilliant British made HiFi of course

[KidKruger]

My impression of 'immigrants' at a personal level is very positive.

This myth about coming here to scrounge is tired.

The UK workforce has needed a kick up the arse for years and now it's got one (or a succession of ones).

Good.

Sick and tired of the fabled 'honest working class' BS. Incomers in my experience are more proficient workers, more appreciative of the job, faster, think ahead a bit or with a wider view about what they are doing, are more inventive and offer actual suggestions for improvements, turn-up at agreed times, don't feint at the prospect of longer hours or extra commitment / support required at times, are more ambitious and are more positive.

It's meant to be discriminatory to regard people in a different way because of their background, but if one's going to generalise I'd take immigrants as staff all day long.

I have quite a large team at work, 15 of them are in London, 13 are Indian, the remaining 2x white guys I've just sacked mainly due to their inability to do a decent day's work. There sense of entitlement for doing feck all is bewildering, slagging-off the Indians while they do as little as they can (in terms of hours and throughput) placing the burden of that uncovered work on their colleagues.

It's only my experience, but I know how I'm going to deliver my projects now and the local guys just haven't cut it at all. It's embarrassing TBH.

The immigrants come over here and must think locals are handicapped for not recognising that all you have to do is a decent day's work for a decent day's dough.

This is all about my field and my projects, not the entire story.

But from what I see, thank feck these guys are here because it means things are gonna get done !

[JoeLeg]

Been wondering for a while whether to get involved in this, but that nonsense from apbremer tipped it for me.

You really think the immigrants are the problem? Like fuck they are. Since the 90's I've watched a succession of young Britishpeople enter my world - professional kitchens - only to run a mile, or show themselves as lazy sods, as soon as they realise what actual hard work is like. Of course the rise of celebrity chef culture is s specific factor in this case, but the general point will stands. I firmly believe that there are too many young British people looking to get by on minimum of effort while expecting the maximum of salary.

Fruit pickers? Hospital cleaners? Carers? Security guards? Kitchen porters? All those crappy jobs some folk think themselves too good for? They go to inmigrants, and I for one welcome them. They work harder, complain less and are often an excellent example of the rewards of honest labour.

There are of course exceptions - I've got two English people on my team that I rely heavily on. But I also have a Bangladeshi, three Hungarians, two Algerians and a Neopolitan, plus a part time Canadian. I'd be screwed without immigrants, as would the rest of the hotel and catering industry. And most of the country.

So before you bitch and moan about something you don't have any proof of, maybe ask yourself how you ended up in what you think is a mess - and the rest of us think is laziness by the locals - and why you see so few British people willing to start at the bottom, doing menial or physically demanding work.

Edited twice cos bigoted idiots make me mess up my spelling.

[uncleglen]

Labour are responsible for the dire state of the 'working classes'. Failure to educate in useful trades (preferring to lower educational standards and get a massive increase in useless university courses)- then, what a coincidence, the skills gap was filled by immigrants...much cheaper option for Labourjust throw the doors open 2 years before France and Germany. Because the middle classes and property developers demand cheap labour they use the much cheaper options e.g. 'electricians' working for ?20 a day then getting the qualified English electrician in to check and issue the certificate....

Anyway all these 'benefits' are erased by the increase in crime and demands on services.

There is nothing bigoted about this JoeLeg of the fascist left -just practicalities, the fact that you can't get a doctor's appointment, can't get your kids into a local school, and your rent is sky high...

[Blah Blah]

Yeah and changing local demographics has nothing to do with that right? Millions of people moving south over the past 30 years to get jobs has had nothing to do with it also right? And I challenge you to prove that any electrician will work for ?20 a day. Total crap from start to finish Uncleglen.