Sorry Bromley

[steveo]

Seen from the A23 flyover glistening in the sun, it might be Camelot

[Jah Lush]

This from 2008, the blogger claims to be a designer who has a studio in Croydon. Is that you then Seabag?

It also includes this enlightened gem from the late great David Bowie recorded in an interview in 1999:-

?It was my nemesis, I hated Croydon with a real vengeance. It represented everything I didn't want in my life, everything I wanted to get away from. I think it's the most derogatory thing I can say about somebody or something: ?God, it's so f**king Croydon!??.

http://transpont.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/god-its-so-fking-croydon.html

[Seabag]

Yes Jah and from the same blog:

Kirsty MacColl, whom grew up in Croydon, once added it as number 5 in her top 50 things she hates, adding she hoped it would all be "blown up" someday

Not my thoughts personally, but a thought none the less

[DulwichFox]

I seem to remember during the Cold War era reading an article that in the event of a Nuclear attack Croydon

would be a designated target..

DulwichFox

[*Bob*]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> I seem to remember during the Cold War era reading

> an article that in the event of a Nuclear attack

> Croydon would be a designated target..

That would still be my thinking. Whichever side I was on.

Actually I think I'd take out Stoke as well.

[Louisa]

I wonder if the visiting London gentry felt the same about Peckham and Dulwich during the early 19th century?

Louisa.

[????]

They didn't have nuclear weapons in the 19th Century Lou

[maxxi]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's all very

> Little Britain X Grayson Perry writ large down

> there

Okay - apologies - lots of edits as I played trial and error with a post trying to describe the Grayson Perry take on Cath-Kidson Bags and Agas etc but not allowed to post title and now too hacked off to make any kind of point about it so... - I just meant The Annunciation of the Vergin Deal (The Vanity of small Differences) which I took a peek at today.

GP at his best.

[miga]

When the chatterers show this level of derision towards a place, it's a surefire sign that it's next in line for a spot of re-evaluation by thinking young folk (not me, then). (I'm thinking of the popular imagination in times past of places like Hackney, Brixton and Peckham).

Looking at my trusty copy of "Nairn's London", he passes his idiosyncratic comment on the flux, from "staid Victorian lumps" to "shoddy modern boxes" being built at the time, adding that a "magnificent new city" might be in the offing. I guess he was excited by the potential for change. And it might yet come, it might yet come.

Anyone younger than, say 40, would also be aware of Croydon's importance to the last great English musical subculture: dubstep.

And while this forum might not spare much of a thought for, you know, actual people who live places out of necessity while it shits on them from up on high and so forth, it might be also worth remembering that for the massive swathe of people under 30, Croydon presents a place where they might afford a place to buy and commute into their jobs in Central London. A prescient location given the contents of Peep Show, then.

[maxxi]

miga Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> And while this forum might not spare much of a

> thought for, you know, actual people who live

> places out of necessity while it shits on them

> from up on high

pure gold

[Louisa]

Otta when you say Bromley is all fur coat and no knickers, I have to disagree. It might have been that way some years ago, but the inner London displacement has landed Bromley into a very different category in the last 10/15 years. More so now than ever. If anything, the fur coat no knickers label is more suited to the likes of Sevenoaks, Brentwood etc.

Louisa.

[Seabag]

I'm doing a massive favour to West Croydon

I found it so awful I may yet invest there, some 30 something could rent my investment

Years later I could wax lyrical on how 'edgy' and untapped I thought it was

That's between my triple bypass and hip replacement ops

And then with the kids at uni, I could give them a pad from Dad to live in

What's not to like about that ?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Good post miga

[Jeremy]

miga Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Anyone younger than, say 40, would also be aware

> of Croydon's importance to the last great English

> musical subculture: dubstep.

Is that the funny slowed-down computer game music, that was vaguely popular for a few weeks? Wasn't aware it came from Croydon.

[maxxi]

Bugger... did I forget to press the irony button again?

[peckham_ryu]

I've been working in Croydon for a month. Seabag's description is far from snobby - it barely scratches the surface of the despair woven into fabric of the place. I haven't seen so many beggars in one place since the 90's. The only musical beggar is a karaoke soloist and believe me, you would rather carry Jedward in a backpack having them sing directly into each of your ears than spend more than two bars hearing this guy. The Whitgift centre is that gift that gives absolutely nothing, and once you're in good luck finding the exit you want: you'll be spat out round the back, on a tram line. Dont worry about being run over by a tram though, you'll have long since perished from hypothermia in the bizarre microclimate which is constantly two degrees more miserable than anywhere else in London, and where the buildings are specifically designed to channel icy blasts of wind directly into your face.

And I'll be there all year. Lunch anyone?

[Jeremy]

Huh. I spent a couple of months working for Croydon Council, but we're going back 15 years or so. At least the scene of my misery - Taberner House (awful inside and out) has now been demolished. Several pints at lunchtime was the easiest way to get through it.

There was a good cafe though, that did a special breakfast sandwich... like a whole fry-up inside a giant roll.

[Louisa]

Does anyone on here ever wonder why Croydon is like it is? Demographic changes are symptoms of a London wide problem.

Louisa.

[Otta]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There was a good cafe though, that did a special

> breakfast sandwich... like a whole fry-up inside a

> giant roll.

That's commin in Liverpool, it's called a "bin lid". I loved them!

[miga]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> miga Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Anyone younger than, say 40, would also be

> aware

> > of Croydon's importance to the last great

> English

> > musical subculture: dubstep.

>

> Is that the funny slowed-down computer game music,

> that was vaguely popular for a few weeks? Wasn't

> aware it came from Croydon.

Is that a question?

[Seabag]

Some places just have a 'thing' about them, no matter what.

Bognor Regis has gone through various stages of crappines, I guess it's the proximity to Portsmouth (another crappy town/city)

Littlehampton although near Bognor didn't suffer it's same ill's and attitudes, as it looked towards Brighton for it's 'way out' and bright lights. It was still crappy, but not quite Bognor crappy. And Littlehampton Mods were always way more stylish than those from other small towns nearby

Maybe it's the proximity of where West Croydon is, being cut off slightly, nowhere for it to aspire to. But there's definitely a feeling of reticence there. But oddly, the more I write about it, the more I'm compelled to go there and see further, before the rapid vanilla expansion takes over fully

I only hope to avoid the Whitgift Labyrinth shopping centre, never have I felt that lost in a new shopping space

[malumbu]

I went to Wetherspoons in Bromley South one Friday night. The gene pool was pretty restricted as all the young blokes were about 5'7" tall. It was one hell of a meat market but on the positive side the youngsters weren't bothered by a group of middle aged men drinking in the corner. Now in North Kent there would have been a few threatening stares.

My kids also joke about the Bromley haircut which they think is about ten years out of date. And how boring Beckehham and West Wickham are. Which they are. Am I being xenophobic, racist or what?

Back to North Kent for some reason I was looking at a Gillingham FC fan website once and they were discussing homophobic chants against Brighton, in retaliation for the Shitehawks calling the Gills Pikeys. Ah what a lovely tolerent society we live in. See my immigrants thread.

[miga]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/upper-classes-really-do-look-down-their-noses-at-the-rest-of-us-2254133.html

There's a known correlation between wealth/class and height, especially pronounced in the past. If it's true that the inner London working classes moved out to the outer boroughs and Kent and Essex in the past couple of generations, there's the explanation. Of course the reasons behind the height difference are sad to contemplate.

I try to be aware of my own impulse for the cultural cringe. I haven't always succeeded, especially when I was younger. I wonder if looking down your nose (metaphorically this time) at specific social groups is an innate human need or something we learn from our parents, peers and telly. In any case observing the difference is one thing, the conclusions we go to from there another, and being able to recognise when we act in ways that are just as unoriginal but from a different set of social mores another thing again.

[Seabag]

miga Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/upper-cl

> asses-really-do-look-down-their-noses-at-the-rest-

> of-us-2254133.html

>

> There's a known correlation between wealth/class

> and height, especially pronounced in the past. If

> it's true that the inner London working classes

> moved out to the outer boroughs and Kent and Essex

> in the past couple of generations, there's the

> explanation. Of course the reasons behind the

> height difference are sad to contemplate.

>

> I try to be aware of my own impulse for the

> cultural cringe. I haven't always succeeded,

> especially when I was younger. I wonder if looking

> down your nose (metaphorically this time) at

> specific social groups is an innate human need or

> something we learn from our parents, peers and

> telly. In any case observing the difference is one

> thing, the conclusions we go to from there

> another, and being able to recognise when we act

> in ways that are just as unoriginal but from a

> different set of social mores another thing again.

That's an interesting article. Only a few weeks ago we went as a family to see the Fire of London Exhibition in Greenwich, which was great. But one thing I always love and it had here, was costume and clothing from the period 1680 or there about.

The size of the people that must have worn it was noteably smaller, for today's generation it would have been a squeeze for most 12-14 year olds to fit into. And like the article says, that's down to nutrition mostly.

Zooming forwards to today. I do get the 'impulse' control for cultura cringe, it's often good to check our own tolerances. But I'm not a shrinking violet either, it's part of why we travel to broaden our minds, but when that travel takes you to your own door step and you see this nuanced but obvious difference in an area, it can make us sit up and look and wonder. It can take us aback, but without looking down our noses, we can observe and be present in the differences we see.

Maybe in this metropolis and cultural smoothie we've created, even looking a little way out of 'the London bubble' has started to feel alien. Maybe the classic North South divide is too obvious. Even the Soth of the river thing is too clunky. Maybe we're fragmenting even further into South South divides

[DuncanW]

peckham_ryu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've been working in Croydon for a month. Seabag's

> description is far from snobby - it barely

> scratches the surface of the despair woven into

> The Whitgift centre is that gift that gives

> absolutely nothing,

Au contraire, as it is owned by the Whitgift Foundation - a charity which runs three high-performing independent schools in the Croydon area. Although independent fee-paying schools, just under half the pupils pay no fees due to bursaries from the foundation.

Compare and contrast to a similar charitable foundation closer to home.