Those plague pits

[macroban]

It seems the mystery has been solved. The mounds in Horniman Park are early 1950s spoil heaps from the excavation of the paddling pool. [see The Dulwich Society Newsletter 153, Summer 2007]

I find it interesting that before the 1950s were over children were being told they were plague pits, and thus a local myth was perpetuated. Now it's a stated fact on many web-sites.

[Amelie]

The plague pits, as far as I know, are under Peckham Rye and Gipsy Hill Field; this is the reason that no development was permitted on the site of former plague pits until the 1980s. Some poor soul discovered the hard way that plague survives in the soil, like anthrax, and development was banned for 300 years. Oddly enough however this does not appear to have honoured in Aldgate, large parts of which were the City of London's plague pit.

[redrouge]

Oh I think I'll keep the myth alive for my young siblings!

Aren't there plague pits in the burial ground in Dulwich Village?

Apparantly, much of Mayfair was built upon Plague pits too...

And I was always told as a child that Blackheath Common was so called because of the Black Death... but I have no idea whether this is true. I always had a huge terror walking across (which I did for five years as I went to secondary school just off Blackheath Common, because I thought it was rude to the death to juse amble along their resting place!

[Keef]

If I remember rightly, it used to be called Bleak Heath, and was renamed after the plague.

[TillieTrotter]

That is true redrouge, according to Mr Green's book on Dulwich 9 children who died of the plague are buried in the Dulwich Village graveyard along with the King of the Gypsys!!

[peckham_perkster]

I was told by a fairly reliable source that Warwick Gardens at the end of Holly Grove in Peckham has plague pits underneath. They only found this out when about 50 years ago or so they went to do some work on water/gas pipes in the park and the workers were struck down with an illness which was quickly diagnosed as the plague! Hole covered up and all work stopped immediately. This is why it has never been built on.

Don't know if this is true but it sounds about right when you consider the rest of the area has been built upon but this mysteriously wasn't at the time.

[mockney piers]

I've had a cursory hunt around and found no evidence that bubonic plague can survive outside of a nice homely environment like a flea or a human victim, and definitely not in the soil.

There are some theories that the original black death was actually a virus as the spread was too rapid and widespread for fleas and their rat hosts to be responsible. Plus it was spectacularly deadly, with in many parts of Europe one in three dying, which no outbreak of plague (such as that in the 1660s) has come close to emulating.

Can a virus survive 700 years in the soil? Gawd knows, I'm no expert, but I bet you not building on plague pits is more to do with superstition or just plain ickyness than plague. If someone got ill digging there it would more likely have been ecoli or somesuch than plague.

that's just my theory after a quick swizz on t'internet btw.

[ratty]

The whole of Old Portsmouth is a Plague Pit and I think that the whole not building thing is more myth and superstition than anything else.

When it was discovered that Old Portsmouth was a Plague Pit property prices plummetted incredibly. Perhaps this is the real reason for not building there! There's no money in it!

[Amelie]

Building on known plague pits was illegal until the end of the 1970s either because plague did survive in the soil or was believed to.

[mockney piers]

I've had a bit more of a thorough hunt around and Yersinia Pestis, which may have been responsible for the 17th century outbreak (victims of the black death all tested negative, but it could at a pinch have been a pneumonic variety of bubonic plague) can survive in soil.

The context of this is from modern research into the bacillus in Asia where outbreaks still occur to this day, and that it survives in the faeces and soil around burrows which can infect the new generation of burrow inhabitants. Whether it'll hang around in the soil for 400 years without any sort of host sounds highly dubious to me, but I can't find anything to support or deny this, and what the hell do I know anyway.

I shall email a biomedical expert who's always reading up on this sort of thing. I shall report back if anyone other than me finds this interesting.

Am I a bit weird?

[Fear 'n boozin]

I now need to know. Report man, report!

[Ant]

Got some digging planned, Fear?

[Keef]

As an aside, there's a square grave in the village grave yard, where an old woman was burried. She died sat on a step, and was so hunched up, that rather than straighten her out for the coffin, the burried her in a square box.

Can't remember the details of that story very well, but specifically remember my primary school teacher telling it...... He could have been taking the p!ss...... Any local historians shed some light?

[Fear 'n boozin]

Ok, my brother who studied this kinda shit (so must be an expert) says:

"some viruses can be dormant for very long periods because they have no metabolic activity so don't require any food - as long as they don't get too dried out- although I think the black plague was caused by a bacteria but they can also stay inactive for long periods such as viable bacterial cells have been removed form pharaohs tombs".

Every website I've read [and I'm pretty sure about this] said the Black Death was a virulent, so it could be that he's talking a crok 'o shite.

[Brendan]

The plague was caused by a bateria according to wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yersinia_pestis

But then again wikipedia also once told me that beer had no adverse affects what so ever. Which considering some of my past relationships is a complete lie.

[mockney piers]

On that very page Brendan...

The role of Y. pestis in the Black Death is debated among historians; some have suggested that the Black Death spread far too rapidly to be caused by Y. pestis. DNA from Y. pestis has been found in the teeth of those who died from the Black Death, however, and medieval corpses who died from other causes did not test positive for Y. pestis.

[Brendan]

Yeah I only read the first couple of lines to be honest.

[Fear 'n boozin]

I ignored the wiki and went top brow:

New Scientist

[mockney piers]

You mean you can't take everything on wikipedia as gospel?!?!

strangely

picture of universal laws

picture taken last night after too much rum

[Fear 'n boozin]

you mean you made the universe's laws last night whilst on the rum? No wonder rum's such a grand thing. Sho, tell me, what did you do with regard to virus' and their life span?

[so many questions I could ask, and go with that one. Streath.]

[Keef]

You total utter nerds!!!!!!! ;-)

[dulwichmum]

I bet the old woman with the enormous grave, simply was burried in an enormous dress, which ladies liked to wear in those days. I myself have considered being buried in my enormous wedding dress - just for discussion sake really as we were making a will, and then my kind husband pointed out that I would require a coffin shaped like an Dairylea Triangle - not a good look.

I think I should like a great tomb built in anticipation of my future demise on the round about at Goose Green. I would like to comission a local artist to create an enormous art work in my memory, perhaps a huge Starbucks coffee cup on a plinth.

What in the name of God and all of his angels and saints is a 'plague pit?' If they are recognised mass graves as implied, should we not hold memorial services? I would hate to think that if I died of bird flu - along with half of the rest of London they would toss us in a plague pit somewhere in Croydon.

Isn't The Fox on the Hill at Denmark Hill built on one, and isn't that why no-one builds on its big green space at the front? Perhaps we should go and have a drink in their memory.

I HATE BEING SICK, I AM FED UP BEING IN BED...

[Fear 'n boozin]

we're thinking of having Keefs stag do on the Goose GReen round about, so please don't start excavations until after Ocotber DM :)) [but I like the memorial idea]

[dulwichmum]

Dear Fear,

Just be sure to pm me the exact date, I will be sure not to commence until Keef has had his party.

[Brendan]

Hmm Interesting DM. Personally I would like to be burnt on a huge pyre at sunset while four-score naked maidens dance around and drench the thousands strong crowd of gathered grievers/revelers with various alcoholic spirits squirted from those big super-soaker water pistols thingies. But each to their own I suppose.

Anyway staying on topic here. I have been following this thread closely and waiting for ED?s answer to Sagan and Hawkins to sus the true nature of the universe so that I can print it on bumper stickers and make millions.