In , out, shake it all about

[Blah Blah]

I know a lot of people who think the same as you ????. The likes of the Brexit bunch and Farage are doing the in vote a huge favour.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I have to say that i have actually been swayed a little by the arguments for exit in the last week or so. Overall, I still favour remaining in the union though. I think if we were to leave, it would have a very negative impact over the next 5-10 years, but of course, in the longer terms we would survive and hopefully prosper. But then I'm not really sure what we gain for that upheaval. For a lot of people it seems to be about limiting free movement, something I see as generally quite positive.

The other aspect of this is Scotland and the likely breakup of the UK. In some ways I would be much more upset at Scotland breaking away from the UK (which would be pretty likely imo) than I would about our leaving the EU.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Just think, we might end up out of the EU, with Scotland declaring independence, Trump leader of the free world and Boris as Prime minster!

[DulwichFox]

If we get out people might show more interest in who they vote for and give control to..

.. Stay in and leave it to Brussels to continue to have control who ever we vote in..

DulwichFox

[apbremer]

Turkey in within 5 years~80 million paupers can come and live here on benefits. Madness.

[JoeLeg]

apbremer Wrote:

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> Turkey in within 5 years~80 million paupers can

> come and live here on benefits. Madness.

Have you actually paid attention to what Call-Me-Dave has decided to change regarding immigrants and benefits? Or is the reality shouted down by the voices in your head?

In short, they're cutting off those benefits.

[Loz]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> If we get out people might show more interest in

> who they vote for and give control to..

Really, Foxy? Do you really believe that exiting the EU will lead to higher voting turnouts? I think it won't make a shred of difference.

[DulwichFox]

apbremer Wrote:

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> Turkey in within 5 years~80 million paupers can

> come and live here on benefits. Madness.

You are talking total C**p Have you ever been to Turkey.. ?

Turkey is one of the few countries in the world which is close to being totally self sufficient.

Yes there is poverty in some rural areas but Turkey is a deveoping country and I people do make a living there.

Do you honestly beleive there would be 80 million Turks heading this way..

I also object to you calling this proud nation as Paupers..

DulwichFox

[Blah Blah]

Quite Fox. I've been to Turkey a few times and it is an amazing country, with great weather as well. It's pure fantasy to think all those people will up sticks to come here.

[miga]

apbremer Wrote:

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> Turkey in within 5 years~80 million paupers can

> come and live here on benefits. Madness.

Comedy gold.

[TheArtfulDogger]

I saw the ukip mayoral party political broadcast tonight

Wonderful acting and camerawork, can't wait until their referendum broadcast as it really is like watching one of those old high road (or your local high st) wobbly image tandoori adverts we used to get in the cinemas in the 80s

[Earl Aelfheah]

I'm with fox

[JoeLeg]

Yup, Foxy put it much better than me. Nicely done.

[TheArtfulDogger]

I started this discussion to see what people's views of a potential brexit are and it has been very interesting to see the polarised views on here so far.

As mentioned earlier, there are no real facts being presented by the in or out campaigns so far, just s lost of speculation and some scaremongering (by both sides)

With today's BBC news headlines "EU referendum: France issues border checks warning to UK"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35712463. With the fianc? Minster In France saying it's our border control (ball) and we will take it away if you don't play fair, it has made me wonder what the impact on our neighbours in Europe would be if we did vote out.

In my opinion, France and Germany would be forced to increase their financial contribution to the EU to replace the shortfall when we leave, the Eastern European countries would have to find other countries to migrate to as our borders would be closed to them (or they would have to support their own people in their own country) the whole of Europe would be liable for more of the migrants arriving on their borders as we wouldn't be part of any European scheme going forward, interestingly we could be in a stronger financial position than the European markets as we wouldn't be subject to the eu regulations which means potentially more financial institutions will move to the uk from Europe if our financial regulations are more beneficial and less restrictive for them.

If import /export controls and restrictions are applied would our European partners also find it harder to trade with us (a large importer of European goods)

Not sure how much of this would be realised if there was a brexit, but it would be good to turn the discussion upside down to see what the impact on Europe would be from other countries point of view

[Blah Blah]

Except that there are other european countries like Holland and Switzerland that offer financial incentives we could never match. Take the 'Dutch Sandwich' for example. A nice stepping stone for tax avoidng corporations to our very own Caymen Islands amongst other tax havens.

As too that there is any such thing as free trade. Outside of the EU we would be subject to the rules of the World Trade Organisation, which has it's own set of tariffs etc.

There are deinitely pros and cons in both in/out scenarios. It's just a question of where the pros and cons outweigh each other.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Intersecting that you jumped on the tax avoidance options rather than looking st the strengths of the U.K. Financial sector and what it offers to the rest of the world and Europe.

[Blah Blah]

Because you argued that more financial institutions would move to the UK, but thre is no reason to think that or evidence of such. I mentioned Holland to make the point that what makes any country attractive to financial institutions are the regulations they have in place, none of which are determined by EU membership. In fact, Gordon Borwn's light touch made London one of the most attractive places for investment banking (esp hedge funds) in the world. There were things that were legal here that were not legal in the US for example. The EU has nothing to do with any of it.

[apbremer]

joe-leg~you should listen more carefully to Slimy Dave. Benefit restrictions are only marginal and last for a mere seven years anyway even in the unlikely event that they are not thrown out by Bulgarian judges in the ECJ.

Just heard that my meagre credit card perks have effectively been abolished by decree from Brussels dictatorship. Can they never stop interfering?

Let us just hope that the whole corrupt edifice collapses before June!!

Incidentally all the arguments put forward by the crazed Europhiles here are just those we heard when we were being urged to join the wretched euro~~~economic collapse, mass unemployment,pound worthless and the world isolating us.Pathetic.

[Loz]

apbremer Wrote:

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> Just heard that my meagre credit card perks have effectively been abolished by decree from Brussels

> dictatorship. Can they never stop interfering?

You mean they cut down the huge charges that banks have been charging (meaning higher prices), leaving them less huge profit so they can lob a couple of pennies on in small change to make you think they were doing you a favour? And you fell for it!

Tell ya what. Gimme ?20 and I'll give you 50p in return. Bargain.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Hey Loz, are you part of Brussels because that sounds the same deal they gave us in terms of contributions (a one in forty return) lol

[Loz]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

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> Hey Loz, are you part of Brussels because that sounds the same deal they gave us in terms of

> contributions (a one in forty return) lol

Except apbremner would get absolutely nothing for his missing ?19.50. Unlike our contributions to the EU.

Anyway, that's not even close. The UK's total contribution to the EU is about ?18bn, of which we get an immediate rebate of ?5bn, plus directly benefit from EU spending to the tune of about 4.5bn. Of the rest, some goes to poorer countries in the EU, some to running the EU.

So, should we depart from the EU, expect that a good proportion of the 'saving' to be ploughed into additional government in the UK to make up for all the bits the EU does. As an example, a smallish department like the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills had a budget of over 16bn. So we may even end up paying more for replacing the EU.

[JoeLeg]

apbremer Wrote:

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> joe-leg~you should listen more carefully to Slimy

> Dave. Benefit restrictions are only marginal

I would dispute that they're marginal. Given how we've been vastly too generous with them so far any kind of reduction not only helps financially but also sends a message that only serious migrants are welcome.

and

> last for a mere seven years anyway even in the

> unlikely event that they are not thrown out by

> Bulgarian judges in the ECJ.

If you want to practise your bigotry kindly head back to the comments section of the Daily Mail website. I'm far from being a socialist but that kind of attitude is both unhelpful and deeply unpleasant.

> Just heard that my meagre credit card perks have

> effectively been abolished by decree from Brussels

> dictatorship. Can they never stop interfering?

Others have already pointed out how you have not understood this correctly.

> Let us just hope that the whole corrupt edifice

> collapses before June!!

While I share your desire for some fresh air in politics I doubt we will get it so maybe you should focus on actual research and listen less to crazed headlines and conspiracy websites.

> Incidentally all the arguments put forward by the

> crazed Europhiles here are just those we heard

> when we were being urged to join the wretched

> euro~~~economic collapse, mass unemployment,pound

> worthless and the world isolating us.Pathetic.

I'll agree that there is scare-mongering and nonsense talked by both sides so far, and precious little else. However, you're swallowing the 'hate Brussels' line a little too easily. There are arguments to be made for leaving, but I'd invite you to consider this; human history is littered with examples of success by those who banded together and found compromise, and failure by those who walked alone and eschewed any help. In such an inter-connected, inter-dependant world I feel strongly that united we stand, divided we fall. I advise you to consider carefully how nations like the USA, Russian Federation and above all China will see us if we split apart. I would say that we will be seen as prey.

And as for pathetic? Maybe look to your own arguments in that respect, and calm it down. Debate is healthy and we should be having a lot of it right now. Bigotry will only get you ignored.

[malumbu]

I don't understand stuff like FB where people 'like' postings, or Twitter.

But I do like JoelLeg's above post.

[uncleglen]

In 5 years time we may very well have a useless, bunch of squander bugs called the Labour Party in charge and then the future will be very gloomy indeed as they try yet again to secure a permanent place in Parliament by lifting all restrictions on any kind of immigration like Blair did last time.

We will be well and truly fubar if that happens

[Blah Blah]

Good post Joe.

The 5bn rebate isn't even something we actually pay. We deduct that before handing over any money to the EU.

Without question there are pros and cons to the arguments on both sides. For me the issue is what is preferable. I think staying in and working for change will serve us better than leaving. And I absolutely agree with the premise that countries that work together don't fight each other. I want a world of co-operation, not isolationism.