In , out, shake it all about

[Alan Medic]

???? Wrote:

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> So if you're in a stamped bit you hate and hate

> being in and you have free movement to other

> stamped bits which have govts that suit your

> political beliefs why stay in this social

> construct rather than go to another social

> construct which has the type of social constructed

> philosophy as "its" own govt (another social

> construct); you been on the hash cookies AM?

Deleted post. I write some crap.

[ratty]

Ooh touched a patriotic nerve there!

[????]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> ???? the poor are trapped. Telling people to f off

> to another country because their own government is

> too right wing to care about them is no answer.

> Just look at the six Tory cabinet members that are

> for Brexit, some of the nastiest and most right

> wing people in government.

I wad speaking specifically to ratty and more generally to middle class lefties not the poor.

[????]

ratty Wrote:

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> Ooh touched a patriotic nerve there!

Nope ratty you said you'd be out of this shithole well why aren't you? Because it's bullshit possibly? That these fantastic European bastions of fairness and opportunity don't exist maybe? Just asking the question why you stay if you hate this sh1thole so much. I just don't think this country is that bad I know 90% of middle class lefties do but I don't have you in the Emma Thompson camp. Ooh it's terrible but I soldier on.....i call bullshit

[Louisa]

Blah Blah, if you care about the working people and poor of this country, then putting patriotic sentimentality to one side for a moment (personally sick to death of the right wing crap associated with leaving the EU), the best thing you could possibly do is to vote to leave this union of elitist bureaucrats. As an independent nation we could have flexibility to trade with the wider world and pump money and industry back into the poorer regions where deindustrialisatiom has blighted working communities for decades now. Get the coal mines up and running again, build ships on the Clyde, protect our ailing steel industry. Going it alone would be the most exciting and anti establishment move we could make. Let's stick two fingers upto the political elite who wants jobs for life in Europe, and hand the power back to the poor.

Louisa.

[Blah Blah]

Louisa, the EU gives back more than half the money we pay to it in grants, to areas that are predominently poor. Do you think the government would still give that money to those areas if we left? The same government that announced ?300 million to help LAs deal with cuts, but 89% of which is going to Tory LAs. Governments spend money where they can buy votes.

And did you really just say get the coal mines going again? Yeah lets destroy the p;anet completely shall we - after all, YOU won't be here to face the consequences. You also clearly have no understanding of the world trade of resources and commodities.

The EU is the only reason workers still have any employment rights.

It's not perfect, but millions of jobs rely on it. It would be lunacy to leave.

[DulwichFox]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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>

>

> The EU is the only reason workers still have any

> employment rights.

>

> It's not perfect, but millions of jobs rely on it.

> It would be lunacy to leave.

Jobs for who.. ? People who will be happy to work for ?3.50 an hour.. ..or less.

Where does that protect workers rights...

What has being in Europe for 40 years done for equal pay for women ? Very little..

Get real.. Get out.

DulwichFox

[Louisa]

I would love to know where you get your data from Blah Blah, because not ONCE in every single financial year since joining this organisation, has the UK received more back than its paid in. Net Contributions from Britain to the EU budget have outstripped the benefits received back, in every single year of membership. The poor regions of this country could negotiate a better deal from their own national government by way of devolution within our own political union than they ever could from a multinational organisation such as the EU. Pull out, and this deficit is immediately rectified.

Any socialist worth their weight in curved bananas would tell you that the EU gives national governments a get out clause for not pumping investment where it should be spent. We have natural resources in the ground we could utilise in this country, and we could negotiate a good deal without EU red tape. Why do social democrats always bring the environment into arguments? This is about the economic and political freedom of our population against elitism. Only a true socialist would ever be able to understand that.

The EU is not the only reason we have employment rights, but it is the main reason we have so many restrictions preventing people from prospering from a low starting point. So many more working class people would be able to go it alone in a country free from EU regulation. And where are these magical 'millions' of jobs that rely on the EU? Another made up fact? Less than 200,000 jobs would be directly impacted (if that), as a result of us leaving political union with continental Europe.

Louisa.

[Blah Blah]

I never said it got more back, I said it got more than half back. You might want to read my post properly before going off on a dinosaur rant ;)

Last time I checked, the UK wasn't a socialist country, so I'll dismiss your stupid comment about only socialists being able to really get it.

The number of jobs is not a made up fact. It is the total of people employed by business who rely on exports to the EU for more than half their turnover. Go and have a look at some trade data sites. 200,000 jobs? - you are having a laugh.

http://theconversation.com/ties-that-bind-the-british-jobs-data-that-really-shows-the-value-of-the-eu-34032

Fox, we have min wage laws.

[Blah Blah]

Something else for you to read Louisa before you show how little you know about the EU,and it's trade with the UK.

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN06091.pdf

[Louisa]

And how exactly is getting half back what we put in a good deal? You've lost me here. So we stay in, get back half what we put in, or pull out and don't put anything in and keep it all for ourselves? Bizarre comment.

We are not a socialist country, but my point isn't that. I'm suggesting social democrats take a look at the bigger picture before dismissing traditional socialists as dinosaurs. Personally I would rather keep my own money than give it to someone else to look after, who gives me it back in scraps when they feel like it (and rips me off by only giving me back half in the process). If we kept our money, we could redistribute it where it needs to be spent in the poor regions of the UK, rather than being sent to former soviet states in the east (who's populations come here to work too and take that money back with them to their home economies).

The point about millions of jobs being directly impacted is false. It's a non-starter I'm afraid. Business will continue and people will continue to be employed whether we remain inside or outside of the European project. We will continue to have trade deals with France, Ireland, Germany et al because they are exporting more to us than we are to them. It would impact their economies if they stopped trading with us. It's pure scaremongering Blah. The positive to this argument of course, is that not only would we continue to trade with our European partners upon exit of the EU, but we could also strike up trade deals with emerging markets in Asia, South America and Africa. Arguably, more important long term than Europe.

Louisa.

[Blah Blah]

And everything you want to know about trade figures here.

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/OTS.aspx

The UK car industry alone exported 3.6 bn worth of exports in December alone. 139,000 people are directly employed by that industry in the UK with another 611,000 employed in related industries. And that's just one industry! I can keep going Louisa..... we also export precious metals - 5.7 bn in December, 3.5 bn of mechanical appliances, 1.7 billion of electronic equipment and 1.7 billion of pharmecutical supplies. How many people do you think are employed in producing that lot every month Louisa? Enough data for you? Now where's yours?

[Louisa]

Blah Blah, are you implying that upon exit, all of this would overnight stop? I don't get your argument. It will continue to happen because the trading relationship between us and the EU would not stop. It wouldn't be in either parties intest for that to happen. Scaremongering. Find a better argument, if you have one.

Louisa.

[Blah Blah]

But you forget the Germany etc will still be in the EU and bound by their trade rules. They won't be able to offer trade deals on equal terms to the EU. The whole point of the EU is that it protects it's own matket amongst itself. Our goods will no longer be competitive with other EU countries. You are agruing for putting billions of pounds of trade at risk and leaving us to compete with countries we can not compete with.

The three continents you mention all have far cheaper labour costs. You view is typucal of someone that doesn't understand how trade deals work, or the sums involved. And incidently, we do already trade with countries outside of the EU. It's a myth that the EU stops us doing that. Made in Taiwan and now China has always marked most of our imports. We don't export much to those countries because they make everything far cheaper. But if you are a business, there is nothing to stop you importing or selling to anywhere in the world.

[DulwichFox]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> I never said it got more back, I said it got more

> than half back. You might want to read my post

> properly before going off on a dinosaur rant ;)

>

> Last time I checked, the UK wasn't a socialist

> country, so I'll dismiss your stupid comment about

> only socialists being able to really get it.

>

> The number of jobs is not a made up fact. It is

> the total of people employed by business who rely

> on exports to the EU for more than half their

> turnover. Go and have a look at some trade data

> sites. 200,000 jobs? - you are having a laugh.

>

> http://theconversation.com/ties-that-bind-the-brit

> ish-jobs-data-that-really-shows-the-value-of-the-e

> u-34032

>

Fox, we have min wage laws.

There are 100 x 1,000's of people who are NOT being paid the minimum wage...

Shop workers... Bar workers... people working in Hotels.. and lots more.

The Min wage laws are a joke...

..and we don't need to be in Europe to make genuine min. wage laws.

DulwichFox

[Louisa]

http://www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/files/Briefing_1502_The%20EU%20Jobs%20Myth_web.pdf

Have a read of this article Blah.

Louisa.

[Blah Blah]

Louisa Wrote:

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> Blah Blah, are you implying that upon exit, all of

> this would overnight stop? I don't get your

> argument. It will continue to happen because the

> trading relationship between us and the EU would

> not stop. It wouldn't be in either parties intest

> for that to happen. Scaremongering. Find a better

> argument, if you have one.

>

> Louisa.

At least my argument is presenting hard data. Maybe you could at least acknowledge your made up figure of 200,000 jobs for the nonsense it is. Jobs will disappear because companies will not be able to price their goods competitively with EU members. What part of that don't you understand? I can sell a car to Germany for X amount now. Leave Europe and I have to sell for X + Y, because I have to pay a tariff. Result is that Germany can get that car for the old price from another EU member. That is how the economics of business works. This is why those countries that want to trade with the EU have to take a secondary membership. Go and look at Norways deal. We can NOT be completely outside of the EU and have the same treade deals - we are really not that important. And just on cars, Germany will soak up that new trade. They would love nothing more than to expand their already sucessful automotive industry.

[Blah Blah]

Louisa, you do know who the centre for policy studies are don't you?

On page 8, he makes the claim that the UK would only be affected by the WTO tariffs, that apply to developing countries, but the EU have kept countries like Africa deliberately out of it's markets with punitive tariffs for decades. ANY tariff makes an export non-competitive to countries within the EU.

[Louisa]

-The EU has free trade agreements with over 50 countries to overcome such tariffs, and is currently negotiating a number of other agreements.

-EU now exempts services and many goods from duties anyway. In 2009 UK charged customs duty of just 1.76% on non-EU imports. This is so low that the EU Common Market is basically redundant as a customs union with tariff walls.

-The EU is not the place where most economic growth is occurring. The EU?s share of world GDP is forecast to decline to 22% in 2025, down from 37% in 1973.

-Norway and Switzerland are not in the EU, yet they export far more per capita to the EU than the UK does; this suggests that EU membership is not a prerequisite for a healthy trading relationship.

-Furthermore, Britain?s best trading relationships are generally not within the EU, but outside, i.e. with countries such as the USA and Switzerland.

-The largest investor in the UK is not even an EU country, but the US.

http://www.betteroffout.net/the-case/10-eu-myths-about-withdrawl/

Louisa.

[Blah Blah]

And that report gets worse. The writer goes on to suggest that any jobs lost would be replaced by new jobs making the things we will no longer import from the EU! So we can make EU wine and champagne and French cheese? We import 2.1 billion pounds worth of mineral materials each month. We import them because we don't have those minerals in the UK.

I am reading your doc Louisa but it gets more fanciful with each page, not because of the ideas it presents, but because it offers NO illlustrative data. He doesn't even cite a breakdown of what we actually export or import and consider how those indiovidual markets would be affected on their own terms. He just seems to argue the 'Labour Market Dynamism' will make everything ok! Well as we've seen recently with the steel industry, market price is everything. Small shifts put major industries out of business. Go and tell those out of work steel workers that Market Dynamism will sort them out. Complete fantasy from start to finish, without any detail.

[Blah Blah]

Cutting a pasting doesn't help your argument Louisa.

I don't think you even know anything about Switzerland and Norway capita.

This is the reality for both Norway and Switzerland

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/16/britain-would-be-diminished-by-leaving-eu

You don't understand do you? These countries still have to pay something to trade within the EU. They are in a worse position than us because they have to apply EU legislation but have NO say on changing any of that.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The idea that if we vote out we can 'set our own rules' is nonsense. If we still want to trade with Europe, we'll still have to comply with EU regulations, well just have little influence in helping shape them. Cameron's line about "the illusion if sovereignty but with less actual power" is about right.

[Louisa]

Ok then let's reshape this argument. At present we have no control over our borders, this in turn affects infrastructure and exacerbates the housing crisis. By leaving, we are able to control fundamental aspects of our being as a state, without influence or regulation from Europe. Comparing the free trade deals of small nations such as Norway and Switzerland to us is laughable. We are one of the richest countries on earth for goodness sakes. Let's say, very worst case scenario the EU member states decide we can only trade with them based on their terms, including strict tariffs and decisions we will not be privy to without a place at the table (totally hypothetical because this just would not happen, but let's go along with it). So what? We can now trade with whoever we want to trade with can we not? Europe turns its back on one its biggest and wealthiest trading partners (bizarre move), we go to emerging markets in the wider world, open ties with former and current commonwealth friends and allies who would make up for any losses from Europe. The arguments against us leaving have no foundation in fact, full stop.

Louisa.

[red devil]

Condensation is formed when hot air hits a cold surface...

[ratty]

???? Wrote:

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> ratty Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Ooh touched a patriotic nerve there!

>

>

> Nope ratty you said you'd be out of this shithole

> well why aren't you? Because it's bullshit

> possibly? That these fantastic European bastions

> of fairness and opportunity don't exist maybe?

> Just asking the question why you stay if you hate

> this sh1thole so much. I just don't think this

> country is that bad I know 90% of middle class

> lefties do but I don't have you in the Emma

> Thompson camp. Ooh it's terrible but I soldier

> on.....i call bullshit

I said I would vote to leave the UK and join Europe, meaning join a super state. Not that I want to leave - I am too think to speak the lingo elsewhere.