Gina Ford fans?

[sillywoman]

OK, you just don't come across that way from our posts. And I don't think my opinions deserved any sighing or deep breathing, that implies excessive patience on your part. Which, as I'm just expressing my opinion - as you did yours - is completely unwarranted not to mention unpleasant. I don't despair of you randomv - it's not my place to do so. You're completely entitled to believe what you want & state it on this public forum. I just pointed out that unless you can back your beliefs up with research - that's all it is, your belief. I don't think I deserved your derisory & denigrating response. I hope it doesn't do you justice.

[randomv]

The sigh was because it's exhasperating having to defend every single thing I write on this thread, even when I was clearly being a bit tongue in cheek (hence the winking smiley). It's also annoying to have to constantly state that the things that have been written which are misinformed, in fact out and out mistruths which give an inaccurate portrayal of the way in which I and others choose to raise their children.Incidentally I have never ever criticised other forms of parenting.

As for out and out facts and research to prove things (even though I've already said I was bieng tongue in cheek)..well as I recall from previous threads on this forum (homeopathic immunisations springs to mind) there are some people here who can dispute the most overwhelming evidence if it doesn't fit in with their pre-conceived and ill-informed ideas anyway.

Derisory? Denigrating? Unpleasant? A Nutter? I'm really none of those things and I've read and re-read what I've written to see how you could say that. Oh well, it's clear that my writing style is not welcome on the ED Forum. Never been the most prolific of posters, more of a lurker really, but I've had enough of the hyper-sensitive over-reaction that I seem to provoke whenever I try and explain anything.

[Pickle]

Randomv, I've also re-read your posts after those comments were made and don't think you've said anything to warrant it. The hard thing about an internet forum is that it's really easy for comments to get taken the wrong way... I too am a big fan of winking smiley's ;-)

We've done well on this thread to discuss the dreaded routine topic and not get out of control - I remember a similar "discussion" on my Babycentre birth board back in the day and it was horrendous!

Hope everyone's enjoying the snow as much as me (which is NOT AT ALL! GRRRRRRRRRR, go AWAY snow).

[jojobaby]

i would like to ask some questions - if you plan to follow GF for your first child i assume that this pattern will follow for subsequent children.

What do you do with the second/third/forth child if you are all on holiday, or out for a evening with other kids and you all go out and eat dinner at eight/nine pm? What do you do with the 7pm bedtime for the new born. When your children grow up you realise that the evening is for everyone - not just the new mum. or do you leave the newborn with a baby sitter? I am seriously keen to know what happens in that situation.

Also please look around other countries - only UK and a very british culture has the concept of babies in bed at 7pmish. Generally in european countries the babies are awake in the evening with the rest of the family, similar in asian countries. Why is there such a need to have the baby asleep early evening to miss out on the rest of the family.

I may sound harsh and sometimes i do offend - but thats my way. I am a very chilled out person and even if i do not agree with what you do with your babies it does not mean i will not like you or judge you. Do not be so sensitive and just stand your ground and defend your actions - i probably wont agree with them anyway.

I am looking on to motherhood over 8 years and i see a wave of middle class women bowing to this GF book - always question the status quo and do not attempt to tell me that GF is not some "New Labour" middle class syndrome - like book clubs. Please dont get me on them

jojobaby x

[candj]

Sometimes I feel we need an even bigger winking smiley face as they have often failed me in their current diminutive size.

[helena handbasket]

randomv, don't fret! I don't think you've been a nutter at all, and am not sure where this is coming from. Actually read your posts and nodded in agreement ......... I know what you are trying to say. Having read followed this topic in the Times and the Guardian, as well as assorted other media, I'm astounded by the creative liberties being taken by the writers and their "fact" checkers. As far as I can tell most of them have only gone so far as to use Wikepedia and a few neighbors/moms at the library as their sources. I too am frustrated by the generalizations and bizarre allegations, and I hadn't even heard of Gina Ford until my son was a toddler.

jojobaby again I don't know where you get your 'facts" from but this isn't just a British thing...... and in response to your question about what to do with the rest of the family once a newborn comes along, then it really does go to show how much you don't understand about this particular topic. There is plenty of room for special occasions........ the fact that junior is in bed at a set time (and not necessarily 7:00 btw) means that he gets tired at that time and can be relied upon to nod off in the buggy or somewhere. And frankly, the only people I know who don't think babies should be in bed sleeping and not up with parents are those who can't be tied down by a baby and want the option of doing things when they want. Which is in total contradiction to your original post which states your fury about moms not being willing to sacrifice their needs for the brief baby period. You have strong convictions but I'm not sure what about...........

But this should all be useful for the piece this thread was meant for.

[Belle]

The thing about 7pm bedtime is interesting. When our little boy was 8 months we were on holiday in France and thought we'd give the evening meal a try - he actually went to sleep in his pushchair for a bit while we ate, as he was clearly tired. anyway when it came to transferring him at 9.30ish to the cot back in our apartment, all hell broke loose and he cried for the next 3 hours. For us that was our lesson learned - he clearly does need to be in bed (not just sleeping in pushchair out and about) at that time, and it's fairer to him really that we do that. It really wasn't worth our quick dinner for the 3 hours screaming. That's just him - I know lots of babies can cope - but we had a similar nightmare when we attempted to have him with us at a wedding (throughout the evening too) - he ended up totally overtired and upset, and was very difficult to calm down when we got back to the hotel. If we do have another child and they are similar to him, we'll just have our evening meals in on holiday etc, no great hardship there.

[candj]

Belle, the thing we do on holidays to the continent is that we the adults eat a bit earlier than usual and the kids eat a bit later (with a bath first so that they're ready to get into bed the second we get back to the hotel). With the added hour time difference, we all enjoy dinner together and it really works. (tu)

[R&A]

From the conversatoins i've had over recent weeks re GF (and there have been many!) it seems that most people use her advice for child No.1 and then the with follow on kids they just slot into whatever routine the family has established.

Generally people are more confident with the next children and know when the baby is 'tired/cold/hungry'.

It's really for new mums who are lost in the world of baby-ville and don't have a clue about how long babies need to sleep or how much and when they need to eat etc - that's certainly the case for me.

Perhaps it's because in this country we dont' live with the grandparents anymore and therefore miss out of advice and help which the EU countries do have? We need the manuals over here...sad but true.

.

What baffles me is just how angry and emotional people are about other people's chosen methods of bringing up their children. What does it matter if they put their kids to bed at 7pm? I can't see how that's cruel it's just what these people choose to do. If routine doesn't work for some people then that's fine - each to their own.

This is controversial and i don't mean it to be but... i have also noticed that those people who have tried the gf routine and then it didn't work for them, now seem to 'hate' her. Did they 'hate' her methods before they tried? Or did they hate her cos it didn't work for them...

anyway - as i have said earlier - i am not a gf follower (yet) as i've only just had my baby but i am going back to work and i know that a routine will probably be the only way i'll manage, so gf/routine is definitely going to be my first port of call...

lots of smiles and winks

[Mellors]

I am a routine follower (vaguely) and my children are worn out by 7pm (age 1 and 3) so they go to bed, even on holiday. We tend to all eat a lovely long continental style lunch together instead, and then we all stay in in the evenings. I suppose the alternative would be to get a babysitter, but after a busy day en famille I usually just want to chill and go to bed. My life has changed massively in this respect since children (no more Ibiza raving for a wee while), but thats fine by me, thats what its all about. Nothing worse than screaming overtired children in a grown up restaurant at night IMO.

[pebbles]

I've found that having a routine allows me to be all the more flexible while on holiday. We went on holiday last summer with our then 2 yr old boy and he came out for dinner with us (as Belle said having bathed before) and then when we got back to accomodation he was put to bed - about 10ish and then we were lucky enough that he slept til 10ish the next morning. I now have a baby and am actually off on holiday in a few weeks time and i'll take the same stance with the eldest and then our baby will sleep in the pram while he's being a big boy and eating with the adults. But we also got a babysitter a few nights and he was in bed at 7 and he just fitted with what happened.

I have found the best thing about establishing a routine is that you can be flexible and they just fall back into it when they get home.

I have friends who work and follow gf (loosely!!) and they would hate to put their children to bed at 7pm as it would mean they'd never see them so they're normally in bed about 8-8.30 and then have to be woken at 7.30 to get them ready before being taken to childcare and what this then means is the kids make up that extra hr during the day - ie they feel that lets say their kids need 15 hrs over a 24 hr period but can only get 11 at night they try to make it up during the day.

Anyway, everyone does what feels right for them and fits with their lifestyle but we love our holidays where he just fits in and enjoys being a big boy but falls straight back into 7-7 when we get home (after a few days depending on the time difference).

[jojobaby]

This is our holiday routine - this one is especially for helena handbasket - we go on holiday (always with extended family as a norm - min 10 of us including children of all ages ranging 3months to 16 years) all wake up at half nine including new born and go for a nice breakfast in the hotel - after lunch we all go sleep at 2pm until about 5pm - too hot to be out in boiling sun half the time) . All europeans go back to beach at five after sieata for a couple of hours, then we all go out in the evening and eat about eight and all the kids sleep by midnight.

i understand very well this topic as i have five children and i would never subscribe up to a women who has never had children and raised dogs for a living telling me how to raise my baby. I have looked at her regime and it begs believe that so many mothers would turn to this routine before asking their family/mothers for advice.

Even with my first child if he fell asleep at ten he was never woken for a feed or kept awake for the sake of him being tired later to sleep at seven. i know the routine very well - as i already said loads of my friends followed it - my family (all medical) said "never wake a sleeping baby" - i have always gone back to work after children within 12 months and so even as a working parent i never followed the feeding times - the baby dictated what happened, not me, or my husband, or the brothers or sisters

[R&A]

.. i suggest for next week's 'EDF family room book club' meeting we discuss Contented Little Baby?

Any takers? Babies welcome of course.

N.B I'm free any of the following time slots 11am-2pm, 3:30-5pm or after 7pm?

;)

[helena handbasket]

jojobaby clearly you do not know the topic as we are not talking about YOUR personal parenting style. Everything you say tells me that you have some fictional narrative running through your mind about what parents with routines are actually doing. Never, ever in my mind did it occur to me to wake a sleeping baby. Didn't have to, he woke up every hour all by himself! I'm sure that was healthy.

As a teacher, however, I'll bet I can point out which children have parents who allow them to stay up until midnight if that's what they feel like.

My mother's advice? Well....... I had no routine, a lot of flexibility and that is precisely WHY I have decided it is important. I had no structure and dragged myself through school...... funny how real life doesn't work great for children (like myself) who had mothers that didn't "buy into" the value of structure and routine. Wasn't in fashion in the 70's. And now that she's seen how positive it has been for my son she is hugely supportive.

And we travel a lot. And well.

R&A I would love to join your bookclub

[randomv]

Jojobaby - it appears to me that you are far less flexible in your views on routines for children than "we" (the mums who use them) are about adapting them to suit our lifestyles at any particular time. I have taken my LO to things in the evening and he will usualy sleep through part of it but to be honest as a pp said, he is knackered by 7pm and needs to sleep. He needs more than 9 hours sleep at night (that's an adult portion) and probably 13-14 hours in a day. IMHO there is not much more upsetting than a child who is in desperate need of sleep but has to stay awake, espeically if it's to serve his parent's social life! So to answer your question, I would avoid evening things unless really important, or one of us would stay home with the baby. I'm willing to put my life "on hold" like this because his needs come first and this time is so short and precious. Generally speaking though we adapt the routine for a few days. so we may not have a family meal in the evening but adults take a brunch and then have our family meal at around 5pm which is children's tea-time. There will be many years ahead in which young children can stay up late and socialise, they don't have to be rushed as babies or toddlers. I know - shockingly selfish of us isn't it?!!

As it happens none of my family are British, (southern European) so I have many cousins etc overseas. In my experience their lives are very diffferent to us in the UK, especially those of us here in London. Typically grandparents are on hand and help in looking after children if mum has to work. So yeah, a toddler in Italy may be up til 10pm to spend time with the family, but they are cared for in the home by day and can therefore have more sleep structured through the day to compensate. Something to aspire to perhaps but not really possible when mum has to work and baby/toddler goes to nursery so has to be up by 7.30am and is only given an hour or two to nap during the day. And what about when the toddler goes to pre-school or primary school? There is no afternoon nap built into the day in UK schools.

Jojobaby I just saw your latest post. I think you're right in that it's a shame that so many women feel they don't have the support they would traditionally have had, but the fact is that for many of us our mothers are either far away, passed away or (and you can't underestimate this one) not particularly good role models themselves. I'm delighted for you that you have such an idyllic family life, really I am. Clearly you are a very talented woman. If only you could direct some of that talent towards being more accepting of other women's parenting choices..

[helena handbasket]

Are you real? You seem to be contradicting a lot of your original post, as I mentioned earlier, but more importantly you can't decide how many kids you have! First it was three, now it's five...........

edited to say this is for jojobaby again

[randomv]

LOL!!!

R&A Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> .. i suggest for next week's 'EDF family room book

> club' meeting we discuss Contented Little Baby?

>

> Any takers? Babies welcome of course.

>

> N.B I'm free any of the following time slots

> 11am-2pm, 3:30-5pm or after 7pm?

>

>

> ;)

[Pickle]

Jojobaby, most people on this thread have approached the debate by saying what works for them, but also accepting that what works for one doesn't work for all. No one has attacked your parenting style, so I don't understand why you're being so aggressive in a "my way is right, you're all damaging your children" way to those of us choosing to use a routine? It's great that your way of doing things works so well for your family, why can't you accept that other approaches to parenting also work for different families and aren't "wrong"?

For the record, I was bought up in New Zealand at the height of the Truby King way of doing things. New Mums were given (by the Plunket Nurses, who are similar to Health Visitors) a schedule, which they followed as that's what they were told to do. This is the method that recommends leaving babies outside in the garden in all weather and has a strict no feeding before 4 hours is up rule.

[veryseriousgirl]

Jojobaby,

It's fantastic that you have your extended family around you and that your style of parenting works for you and your kids. You sound like a very happy bunch and I hope our family bonds as well as yours sounds like it has.

Unfortunately, not all of us have that kind of support network - both my parents and my partner's parents live on the other side of bodies of water. Both of our mothers weren't terribly interested in babies the first time around and, while they are thrilled to buy gifts for the baby, have no desire to be involved in childrearing and both claim they can't really remember what they did with their babies, so wouldn't like to offer any advice. Both were loving mothers, but not everyone adores tiny babies (it's hard to see how, with them being so engaging and squidgy, but it was the 70s and I guess both were being bombarded with the idea that if they didn't attempt to "have it all", they were letting the side down).

People are also given different advice - when we first got home from hospital, the midwife visiting me ticked me off for not waking my (jaundiced) baby for a feed every three hours.

People adapt given their circumstances to adopt what works for them. I think everyone contributing to this discussion has the same goal - to have a happy, healthy, well adjusted baby.

[Smiler]

Snowboarder, a lot of the baby books made me feel this way too, but think it was/is partly in my own head, but partly, as you say, due to the way the books are written ("do this and all will be well").

My little one has just started sleeping through at 21 months, really hope it lasts.

snowboarder Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You know - we have always had the same bedtime

> routine, fed regularly and naps at fairly set

> times. But sleep and naps are still disastrous.

> I think its this feeling that we have/are

> 'failing' despite following gina style guidance

> that is upsetting - and the inference that if you

> do follow said guidance it really will work...

[littleEDfamily]

To snowboader: I just wanted to say that I think a lot of us who talk retrospectively about what worked for us possibly give a more positive spin on it that we would really have felt was the case as the time - not necessarily on purpose either.

It seems to be a wonderful quirk of parenthood that you have selective memory of the past (tending only to remember the better stuff), so take heart from that!

[Smiler]

You are not the only one Snowboarder! Many, many, many parents in same boat. The sleep issue has been major for us and am sure for lots of other people, but maybe they are too knackered to post!

snowboarder Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Debate is good - but everyone seems to be either

> gina/baby whisperer/etc follower and happy, or bit

> all over the place and happy....am I the only one

> who both tries to have a routine but also has a

> baby who does not sleep/eat well?!? Worst of both

> worlds!!

> It's as much what you do as the personality of

> your baby I tell myself. Not that this helps loads

> but still! (oh yeah and the b/feeding to sleep.

> desperate times.)

[largeginandtonic]

To snowboarder: I've read a number of your posts on other threads and you remind me of myself a few years ago. My 4.5 year old was like your son sounds. I started out trying to fit her into routines, followed all sorts of advice, felt like every day was a battle which I lost. Eventually (at around a year? I can't remember?) I gave up - we co-slept, rocked her to sleep for naps, stopped tearing my hair out when she woke constantly and just tried to go with the flow more. I never really felt like I cracked the sleep thing, she just got older.

With my son (9 months) I thought I'd just start out with the o-sleeping, demand-feeding, sling-carrying approach from the beginning to see if a more relaxed, natural approach would work better. You know what, he is a v happy chap but he's a dreadful sleeper! (sleeping in sling at the mo as I bob up and down - up a gazillion times last night). So I have tried both extremes and neither produced a good sleeper. Either I am just plain rubbish at parenting or I produce crap sleepers - probably a mixture of the two.

What I can promise you, though, is that sleep will be a much less important part of your lives as your son grows up. Yes, there will be other issues but you will be better able to face them. The thing about sleep deprivation is that you feel crap and are less able to parent in the way you want. When the sleep gets better (and it will - promise!) you can face other parenting issues on a level playing field with other parents, if that makes sense, I.e. not crippled with sleep deprivation.

I would love to meet you if you ever need a sympathetic coffee.

(Sorry for thread hijack!)

[helena handbasket]

littleEDfamily Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To snowboader: I just wanted to say that I think a

> lot of us who talk retrospectively about what

> worked for us possibly give a more positive spin

> on it that we would really have felt was the case

> as the time - not necessarily on purpose either.

>

> It seems to be a wonderful quirk of parenthood

> that you have selective memory of the past

> (tending only to remember the better stuff), so

> take heart from that!

I'm actually really glad I managed to somehow record hours and hours of video of the first year, because when I watch them now I am RELIEVED to see a jolly bouncy baby and a pleasant happy mommy........ sadly that's not how I remember it. Good to know it wasn't as miserable as I seem to remember.

And being around moms who were doing well/had easy babies was excruciating! Always thought there should be a support group for moms with babies that have, shall we say, strong personalities?

[canadianlisa]

Really interesting debate.. I am currently reading the CLB in the hope of getting into a little routine with my 12 week old baby. As most people have stated, I have found some of the information useful. That being said I looked the book during the first 8 weeks and I had to hide it as it made me so angry. However now that I feel a bit more sorted and confident I figured it was worth another look.

We are doing well on the nighttime sleep after the late night feed, but struggling a bit with naps and she still spends most of the evening with us in the lounge (sleeping on us) which is lovely in a way but also it would be good to change as baby Canuck is becoming more sensitive to noise and we are therefore now tiptoeing around.

What I can't figure out from the book is what you do when things go wrong and they are crying during nap / night time? Let them cry for 10 minutes- reassure them without picking them up. But- what if they carry on crying? Even with the reassurance as my baby does? If you are just going in and seeing them and it is not working then isn't it just controlled crying? I have tried researching this via the GF website but it is ?60 to subscribe which I am not keen on. I am pretty soft when she cries and not sure I can manage to listen to it without cuddling her for 10 minutes, let alone an hour.

I am sampling a few books and waiting for the Baby Whisperer book to arrive so I am not sure that I will go with GF but am interested in other people's experiences.

Thanks