Gina Ford fans?

[littleEDfamily]

helena handbasket Wrote:

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> We need a laugh.......For babies to hear when

> parents cry........

He he, that made me laugh. In all seriousness, I once had a complete breakdown after a particularly horrible trip home on bus/ train with a totally unco-operative toddler and heavy bags. I howled like a banshee when I got home and I have never seen the wee one look so perplexed. Bizarrely, it seemed to straighten her out and she behaved perfectly for the rest of the night.

Re: Gina, I never read her properly - I am slightly Victorian in my parenting style anyway. But I have absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that a half way decent routine (that you're not ridiculously anal about), does parents and sprog a whole lot of favours! Although I did get a few helpful points from reading baby books, overall, in hindsight, I felt they eroded my confidence. I was always more anxious when trying to digest whatever book I had dipped into. Gina or any other guru is great if they make you feel more confident and in control as a parent. As far as the 'psychological damage' argument goes.... eeerrr, not convinced. Parenthood is all about balancing firmness with kindness, in my opinion.

For the record, I think controlled crying has its place as does any other means of drawing boundaries. I think all parents have the instinct to nurture and to be kind and attentive to their children's needs. What it takes time to learn (and is ongoing) is when is the appropriate time to be firm, and what kind of firmness will work best in that situation. A totally permissive and indulgent parenting style would concern me far more in terms of lasting damage than anything Gina is likely to come up with! (PS not saying any of you are indulgent parents for the record).

[jojobaby]

this is from me now, not my mum: Why are you all reading books?

you can all say what you want - i have so many close who have all used GF ( and i have slatted the lot of them) - they all know my feeling and i have called them a disgrace. And my friends admit they did it for themselves , not the baby. And they all respect me for my feelings cos i say it as it is, without the nice trimmings.

do not tell me that a baby sleep 12 hours straight without any time waking up and crying. Go to the lancet or the bmj if that is the case you are a rare rare case. My whole family and extended family is medical and if they saw me following the GF book they would have killed me.

I have witnessed several 6 week old babies crying because they are hungry and their mum has said GF says i have to wait 4 hours - proof is in the pudding.

[Bumpkin]

I totally agree LittleED family on the controlled crying. I hated the idea of controlled crying when baby B was younger but after putting up with 2 months of being woken up 2/3 times in the night and at 5am when Mr B was working away from home during the week (and baby B was a reasonable age and had slept through before), my friend said - face it, you have to try it. So at 5am I put him back in cot (rather than bringing into bed where he didn't go back to sleep at all...); let him cry for 10 mins, went back and reassured him, he cried for 2 mins and then slept til 8am!! For several weeks after he slept straignt through to 7am and I felt stupid for not trying it before...

Have used it several times since at any sign of not wanting to go to bed etc and have found that 10 mins max of crying usually sorts us out for the next few months (haven't had to do this for so long, "several" is prob an exageration)- surely better for a baby to have decent sleep than worry about a very short period of crying?

[sillywoman]

randomv Wrote:

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> As it happens, CLB babies often cry less becuase they

> are fed before they are hungry and the routines

> don't lead them to get overtired...

Hmmm, where does this claim come from & is there research to back it up?

Re GF: She has a lot of useful advice to give I think & if you can edit the wheat from the chaff her books can be helpful. I'm totally with pickle though re the 6 week watershed. I too firmly believe it's pointless and potentially distressing for baby & parents to try and introduce any routine before that point. After that it's worth looking at Gina, Tracey Hogg or whoever to get idea's on how to introduce elements of routine should you feel the need for it. Everyone is different and one persons lifestyle may not suit another. Some have more need for routine & predicability than others, babies are the same - each one is different. I am very wary of anyone who says " all babies need x" (e.g. who on earth made the 'babies should only be awake for 2 hours' rule?!) as each & every baby is as different as each and every family.

The thing you have to remember about GF is the angle she's coming from. She's not a Mum, she's never had children, so she's never done the exhausting job you do. She doesn't have the hormones you have, the overwhelming need to respond to your baby's cries that you have, the sleep deprivation combined with a love so deep that you would do anything for this little bawling scrap in your arms, especially if it would just go to sleep NOW! - she's never done all that. She's paid to come into someone's home and get their baby into a routine for whatever reason. it's not a bad thing, or a good thing it's just what she is/does. As a Mum or Dad, you're starting off from a different place, so your experience of her routines will be different to the way she experiences them. To Gina it's a job - to you it's your life. If the routines don't work for you - that's probably why. If they do work for you - great. If you're happy without any routine or your baby just falls in to it naturally - brilliant. Live & let live I say, do what works for you and enjoy the diversity of other people's different views & lifestyles.

The only other thing I would say is that if you're considering taking any course of action with your baby it's always worth asking yourself " is the efficacy of this action backed up by research evidence?" If not, then it all boils down to hearsay & personal preference. And sometimes with babies personal preference is as good a decision making tool as anything else!

[sillywoman]

laurac Wrote:

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> With my first baby I completely took on board all

> the NCT stuff (or at least what the course I was

> on taught) about on demand feeding and letting the

> baby settle into her own routine

Not sure about this being "NCT stuff" Laurac - I can't think of any teachers locally who would advise "never letting the baby settle into her own routine". Most that I know suggest 6 weeks of no routine while you adjust & get to know your baby & then it's up to you to try one, (or not) if you feel it would be of benefit.

[missd]

I found GF useful - not so that I could follow it to the letter but it was good at giving me a rough idea of what the day should look like. I did not wait 4 hours to feed him - I fed him on demand. However the benefit was that I was able to read the signs that my own baby was giving me as to whether he was tired, hungry etc. I think I may have taken a lot longer to get in tune with him if I hadn't seen GF. As a first time parent I had no idea what an average day would look like so the book was useful in that respect. It also allowed me to see where things should change ie one month, two months and then when food is introduced etcc

You can be totally over the top and follow it to the letter but I would have found that restrictive. I dont want to have to always put my baby down in a darkened room -sometimes when mummy is at lunch having a few glasses of wine he needs to sleep in the pram!

Routines (of some sort) do benefit both mother and child (in my humble opinion). I know what is to be done roughly when, and so does my son -he is content and knows what is coming and that after bath book bottle etc it's bedtime. It helps us both.

I think to call people who use GF a disgrace is rude, judgemental and dangerous - jojobaby, you don't have the right to judge people on how they are choosing to look after their baby. Each person is different and while I personally wouldn't follow GF to the letter I certainly wouldn't make such statements about people who choose to follow her.

[BellendenBear]

jojobaby, what are you talking about? Gina does NOT promote controlled crying. Controlled crying seems to be the domain of parents who at 6 months or later are knackered and at their wits end, not those with babies who are relaxed and happy at bedtime.

GF isn't for everyone, but if you are going to come out against something at least read the book. And please don't imply that others who have benefitted from her advice somehow neglect their child's emotional needs by either ignoring requests for attention or denying them physical contact - where has this come from? Not the books I have read.

Someone once said to me that they didn't agree with GF because she advises you to put your baby in the garden and leave them to cry!! It's just not true.

I really don't see what is so wrong with providing a bit of structure for a baby and GENTLY encouraging them into a routine. Why do people think that babies know what is in their own best interests? If my baby had her way she would leave the house without a cardigan or coat, but I know that this would be bad for her. Why is leading the way with feeds and sleep so different?

[laurac]

Sillywoman, I think you misread me; as you state my (local) NCT teacher advised no routine for six weeks but then also suggested that babies naturally fall into their own routines after that time. As all the posts above show, some do but I can vouch that some definitely don't!

[helena handbasket]

jojobaby, why so harsh? Are you hearing these stories? These are intelligent, loving people who are doing the best they can for their babies. I'm glad that you have so much "proof based" support and confidence in yourself that you never need ANY help with parenting, but honestly your judgmental and aggressive approach (to your friends even!) is more harsh than anything Gina Ford could come up with in her wildest dreams.

You can keep your advice, thanks. I'll stick with my books. They are far more understanding.

[Keef]

Personally I find that as a Gina mum I'm judged as being somehow caring less about my baby than parents who choose a different parenting style which is equally inaccurate and just as offensive (and I suspect why we all feel the need to shout so loud when our chosen method comes under fire) Such as the ridiculous suggestion that following the CLB means you have no gorgeous snuggly memories of your little baby (jojobaby) or that the baby is "an annoyance that should be seen and not heard" (Keef)

It's a case of each to their own, but I personally think she's a tw@t, and an unqualified one at that. She cares not for the baby, it's like it's just an annoyance that needs to be seen and not heard whenever possible.

Just my opinion.

So tell me where I've said that parents following GF think that. I said, in my opinion, SHE thinks that. My problem is with her, and the fact she's not even qualified in child care or anything else.

It is you who seem to be having a pop at everyone, even before I'd posted, you were using phrases like;

What annoys me about the anti-Gina brigade

Which to me is more aggressive than necessary in a discussion.

I'm quite shocked by this thread, someone asked for opinions, and people have given them. They are varied, which is a good thing, but live and let live FFS.

[pebbles]

I'm a bit of a reader and therefore have read literally every baby book under the sun. My feeling is if you actually get rid of all the surrounding twaddle - gf, baby whisperer, baby secrets etc etc etc all say the same thing. baby gets tired and needs to sleep by about 2 hours, baby needs to feed enough during the day so they don't need to feed at night (i'm sorry about the use of baby, i've just read this paragraph and realise i sound like gf!!!!)

i've followed gf and all other books loosely since about 6 weeks. both my children (2 1/4 and 3 months) sleep in both cot and pram although I do prefer their long lunchtime nap to be in cot so i can get stuff done.

however i have to say, if you take it all on board and take it with a pinch of salt you can do anything. my 1st born used to come to restaurants with us until he had outgrown his baby carseat - we would do the nightime routine and put him to sleep in the carseat and then 15 mins later we'd go out. both children are constantly - at least once a fortnight - being put down at friends houses (usually doing the usual bath, book, bed routine) and then being transferred into car or pram depending on where we are and then just transferring into cot to go back to sleep on arrival home.

just cos i've "followed" gf does not mean it hasn't allowed us the freedom that others talk about by going with the flow. i feel that it has given us more freedom as i know when they need to sleep or eat so can plan chores, lunches, shopping, paperwork, baby stuff around it.

it has been absolutely lovely having my evenings with my husband which i truly believe is v v important but i haven't put our children into a routine because of this - i've followed gf (loosely) becasue i truly believe they're happier never getting tired.

i'm waffling, sorry, have expressed for the night (hubby does 10.30 feed) so i've had 3 glasses of wine and it's gone right to my head :)

i will end my waffle by saying as long as the parent is happy that's all that matters however i truly believe if a parent is unhappy with the course their child is taking - they should perhaps look at other courses.

ps - i've never had to use cc on either baby

[sillywoman]

There's some lovely advice in this thread . . .and some who come across in print as judgmental nutters (jojobaby & randomv). GF makes a shedload of money off the backs of poor stressed out parents, and more power to her. If you want to use her routines do it - your baby will be fine. If you're not a routine person, don't do it - your baby will also be fine. None of them will remember it when they're grown for crying out loud.

Vome on EDF-ers, As Keef said -live and let live.

[randomv]

Sorry Keef I think you are taking my post personally which was not my intention. The "anti-Gina brigade" I referred to was in relation to the wider discussion that was taking place on this thread and currently in much of the media. The fact that this thread is now getting heated is a demonstration of how strongly people feel on both sides of the Gina argument. As you say, live and let live and I am 100% pro parents making the choice that suits them. All I ask is that we have an accurate portrayal of what the CLB is about, what it contains etc. Comments about leaving babies to cry for hours on end, possible psychological damage etc etc is not only misinformed (let me be the zillionth person to state that I do not leave mine, the book specifically says you shouldn't leave a baby to cry etc etc) but also a perfect demonstration of why this debate becomes so passionate. So many of the mums I have met will slate but in the CLB but it turns out they haven't read it. They just rely on things like this that they read and that are inaccurate. Others I've met have read and followed the guidelines and have found them to be a godsend. There's no right or wrong here.

Candj - i think the idea behind the pitch black room is to eliminate light getting in and distraction as a cause for the baby waking.

Jojobaby - again I ask, do you think that the Gina mums actually leave their babies screaming in their cots and don't pick them up, cuddle, love, lavish with affection just as much as mums who choose a non routine based day? Really do you think that? How hugely insulting to all of us?

[candj]

randomv Wrote:

Candj - i think the idea behind the pitch black room is to eliminate light getting in and distraction as a cause for the baby waking.

Yes I know, but GF's description was pitch black so that you couldn't see your hand in front of you and that no light seeped around the curtains (in fact I remember reading, she never took on a job if this requirement wasn't addressed beforehand). I personally thought that was nuts because pitch black meant that I would inevitably tip toe into baby's room and trip and crash into something thus waking baby up! And it's much nicer to have black out curtains and a bit of light so you can see. I also think it's nicer to have your child get used to semi-dark rooms because if you are travelling to a hotel or visiting others they wouldn't have difficulty falling asleep because the rooms wasn't perfectly black.

Sorry for rambling, sorry for going off topic-ish.

[randomv]

sillywoman Wrote:

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> randomv Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > As it happens, CLB babies often cry less becuase

> they

> > are fed before they are hungry and the routines

> > don't lead them to get overtired...

>

> Hmmm, where does this claim come from & is there

> research to back it up?

>

Sillwoman - 100% anecdotal evidence from myself and a number of other mums who've followed the CLB. Not entirely scientific but certainly more accurate than some of the claims I've read on here tonight..;-)

[sillywoman]

Ooops sorry laurac - you're right, I did misread. :-$

[randomv]

sillywoman Wrote:

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> There's some lovely advice in this thread . . .and

> some who come across in print as judgmental

> nutters (jojobaby & randomv).

Judgemental nutter? Blimey is that how I come across? I've not slated anybody else's parenting style and I would never do that. I've merely sought to correct some of the misconceptions and inaccuracies that I believe I have read. This is one crazy forum..

[Family Room Moderator]

I have to admit I winced when I saw the topic being posted, but have found this a really interesting thread - thanks to all for your contribution.

I would ask, however, that posters refrain from making personal comments about one another. I've hidden 2 messages.

[helena handbasket]

randomv Wrote:

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> sillywoman Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > randomv Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > As it happens, CLB babies often cry less

> becuase

> > they

> > > are fed before they are hungry and the

> routines

> > > don't lead them to get overtired...

> >

> > Hmmm, where does this claim come from & is

> there

> > research to back it up?

> >

>

> Sillwoman - 100% anecdotal evidence from myself

> and a number of other mums who've followed the

> CLB. Not entirely scientific but certainly more

> accurate than some of the claims I've read on here

> tonight..;-)

I absolutely agree with this. Getting my son on a good eating/sleeping routine (a bit late, around ten months) changed everything in our family. We had a very grumpy baby for all those months, and when he finally had a schedule he completely changed into a baby who was rested and happy (or maybe because mommy was also rested and happy......?)

[Keef]

There's no right or wrong here.

Amen to that!

Sorry, didn't mean to take anything personally.

Do any other blokes post in the family room, this is a lively debate, and I think I'm the only one to jump in (perhaps foolishly).

[snowboarder]

Debate is good - but everyone seems to be either gina/baby whisperer/etc follower and happy, or bit all over the place and happy....am I the only one who both tries to have a routine but also has a baby who does not sleep/eat well?!? Worst of both worlds!!

It's as much what you do as the personality of your baby I tell myself. Not that this helps loads but still! (oh yeah and the b/feeding to sleep. desperate times.)

[Keef]

We've tried routines, and baby just won't really have it. In the end we decided to just forget it, and I think we're all happier to be honest. But you are not alone!

[helena handbasket]

Snowboarder, I know I've said this before but I was exactly where you are, and yes a huge part of it is your baby's personality. I was sure I had tried everything, certain he was just beyond help. At some point I just decided that I was so desperate that I would really really give it everything I had follow the routine exactly as described (although as you know I did Baby Whisperer not Gina Ford). Please don't think I'm giving you a hard time or saying you're not trying hard enough because I am on your side, I know what you are going through, but these more stubborn little guys need so much repetition that you think you will lose your mind. And then, eventually, even though you are sure it won't work, it does.

My son is STILL as difficult as ever, don't want to scare you, but having these skills make some things a bit easier. Honestly, i thought it would get easier but now it's battles over food/clothes/brushing teeth/ going potty etc etc he will fight to the death for every little thing and there doesn't appear to be an end in sight. Plenty of days I just feel like it must be me....... but if I really stick with a program (and many are similar, doesn't really matter which one) that is when I get results. Or at least a cease-fire for a bit.

He is now three and in pre-school, I was so scared of sending such a "spirited" child there, but he actually is doing alright. I suspect it is because they are firm with him (they only get him for three hours so have the strength to keep up with him) but also there are schedules and routines and rules and kids like him thrive on that. He does push his luck there, but it doesn't get him far whereas at home he wears me down hour after hour so by four o'clock he can do whatever he wants basically as by then I've lost the will to keep going.

He gives the greatest hugs and kisses in the whole world though so we'll be alright.

[sillywoman]

helena handbasket Wrote:

> randomv Wrote:

CLB babies often cry less becuase they are fed before they are hungry and the routines don't lead them to get overtired...

sillywoman Wrote:

Hmmm, where does this claim come from & is there research to back it up?

> >

> > Sillwoman - 100% anecdotal evidence from myself

> > and a number of other mums who've followed the

> > CLB. Not entirely scientific but certainly more

> > accurate than some of the claims I've read on

> here tonight..;-)

Well, I don't think you can say your anecdote is 'certainly more accurate' than other people's claims. Nothing is ever that definite with babies and routines. Their claims are just as valid as yours randomv - even if your experience suggests their methods haven't worked for you. It's worked for them, and therefor should not be treated so dismissively.

>

> I absolutely agree with this. Getting my son on a

> good eating/sleeping routine (a bit late, around

> ten months) changed everything in our family. We

> had a very grumpy baby for all those months, and

> when he finally had a schedule he completely

> changed into a baby who was rested and happy (or

> maybe because mommy was also rested and

> happy......?)

I have no issue with routines (in fact I'm quite a fan - though not necessarily of GF)& no wish to challenge those who find them useful or helpful. I'm glad you've found a system that works for you. But I am very wary of any claims of absolutes with babies. What worked for you won't necessarily work for your neighbour and vice versa. I believe it's more important to know how to recognise that what you're doing isn't working for you and how to access advice and help to change the way you manage your child if you feel you need it.

Anecdote is useful, but statements like "x happens because a baby is in a routine" can be misleading, x happened to your baby, but not all babies - there's no guarantees. AFAIK there's no proof that babies in a routine cry less - in fact the only research I know of (very small scale, on the tv sometime ago) shows the opposite, the babies that cried less were the ones whose parents practiced 'natural parenting" - carrying the baby all the time (not an approach appealing to everyone for sure!). Sorry to be so pedantic, but I can't bear to see such careless statements misrepresented as facts.

[randomv]

sillywoman Wrote:

> Well, I don't think you can say your anecdote is

> 'certainly more accurate' than other people's

> claims. Nothing is ever that definite with babies

> and routines. Their claims are just as valid as

> yours randomv - even if your experience suggests

> their methods haven't worked for you. It's worked

> for them, and therefor should not be treated so

> dismissively.

*sighs and takes deep breath* The claims I am referring to are those which are made about the topic in discussion and which are not true. e.g. Gina Ford promotes leaving your baby to cry in a darkened room and not showing affection. These are incorrect and misinformed opinions of the routines asserted by people who have usually not read the books. And I think my comment was quite clearly tongue in cheek.

I despair.

ETA although re the claim about babies crying. All babies cry of course, it's their only way of communicating. But surely there is an arguement that baby-led parenting inevitably leads to more crying - it's their only real way of telling you they are hungry, tired, cold, distracted by chinks of light or whatever. Just some lateral thought from a nutter and really not an attack on baby-led parenting..I am very much in the each to their own camp.