Gina Ford fans?

[Bumpkin]

Quite frankly I think much less of Nick Clegg now for his comments. Not because he didn't agree with Gina Ford's routines which everyone is entitled to do; but that he was "in tears from trying to force his child to conform"! For goodness sake, why couldn't he just read a range of parenting books and take the advice that made sense to him and work it round his child rather than just blind follow something to the letter. I think I would have gone mad if I'd followed her routines to the letter and certainly didn't remotely try to do that, but there are some very sound tips and timings that helped a lot. Doesn't say much for him in my opinion if he can't use his brain to use advice in the way he thinks is best.

[veryseriousgirl]

Bumpkin Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Quite frankly I think much less of Nick Clegg now

> for his comments. Not because he didn't agree

> with Gina Ford's routines which everyone is

> entitled to do; but that he was "in tears from

> trying to force his child to conform"! For

> goodness sake, why couldn't he just read a range

> of parenting books and take the advice that made

> sense to him and work it round his child rather

> than just blind follow something to the letter. I

> think I would have gone mad if I'd followed her

> routines to the letter and certainly didn't

> remotely try to do that, but there are some very

> sound tips and timings that helped a lot. Doesn't

> say much for him in my opinion if he can't use his

> brain to use advice in the way he thinks is best.

Exactly! When I told my health visitor that we were going to try Gina Ford she warned me not to get upset if we didn't follow the routine exactly. I laughed - it's just one tool we have for trying to make sure the baby is happy and I'm seriously not worried about letting Gina or the routine down by not following it to the letter!

[R&A]

Keef - you have hit on the exact point - of course every baby is different. She says this at teh very beginning of her book - 'you apply your common sense to what i say as every baby is different'

As a new mum i would never have known that newborns probably shouldn't be awake more than approx(!) two hours. I have no idea about how long they should be awake/asleep.

But now if my baby's awake for say 5 hours on the trot and wont go to sleep then it's most likely that i have an over tired baby on my hands. I'm guessing it'd take me months to work that out on my 'instinct' alone. Then at least i konw the problem and i can try and solve it. Had i not known this i'd be tearing my hair out as to what the problem was (this happened to me yesterday) i calmly knew he was over tired and focused on getting him to sleep. Not shoving a breast in his mouth or changing his nappy..again. i just knew and then he slept and it was fine.

So you apply common sense to her knowledge and you'll get the most out of her book... and i'm sure any other baby manuals out there.

[Keef]

Bumpkin, I agree with you that Clegg should have tried a few other books, and found what worked for them.

However, I know a couple with 3 kids, who tried controlled crying with their second, and said it had them both in tears, but they'd felt it was the only option left to them (I don't think they lasted long with it).

I guess even for second or third time parents, it can all be a mine field.

Mrs Keef has read so many books, and sometimes I think we'd be better off just ploughing on and seeing what happened, but she'd always argue that it is best to get a full picture of different ideas, which I guess is better (and less lazy) than my idea :)

[R&A]

Keef

Is controlled crying a gina thing?

In the book i'm reading she says don't leave a baby crying for more than 10 mins?

I've read on line however about 'controlled crying' techniques that mean you leave a baby for sometimes 20 or 30 mins and even longer.... i'm sure this'd be really tough to handle and i'd certainly be in tears

i've not read this in GF's book though?

what page?

[Belle]

No it's not a Gina t hing as far as I know - but think the point is that even experienced parents can get overwrought in certain situations. I did find Gina useful up to a point, for all the reasons people have already mentioned, and ignored some of the stuff I thought was ridiculous - rarely woke the baby up after the allotted time, as I felt I should count my blessings he was sleeping for example. I too had no idea what babies need etc and had none of the instincts I was assured would come naturally so it was useful from that point of view. Though I didn't get upset and try to follow it to the letter like Nick Clegg, I can understand all too well the notion of being brought to tears because your baby isn't doing what you think they're meant to be doing, so I wouldn't judge him too harshly for that. It's all just very hard and everyone copes in different ways I guess.

[randomv]

Keef

The CLB does not encourage the use of Controlled Crying. It is clearly stated that it is sometimes appropriate as a last resort in children of 6 months and over who have developed poor sleep associations. Prior to that Gina encourages ssshing and patting (much like the Baby Whisperer) and advises that should your baby fall asleep whilst feeding you should gently rouse him/her prior to placing in the cot. Again, much as the Baby Whisperer does. I think the difference between these two is very much in the writing style. Gina goes for a no-nonsense straightforward style that obviously gets some people's backs up, e.g. Not making eye contact. Doesn't the baby whisperer say something similar about avoiding stimulating your baby prior to bedtime and for the dream feed? Back to controlled crying and in fact I would argue that Gina mums are far less likely to have to resort to it because we know whehter our babies are actually hungry or crying through tiredness etc and the CLB book encourages finding every possible cause before embarking on any course of sleep training (and there are others, not just CC which is always advised as a last resort)

R&A - like you I had no idea at first that babies should only be awake for up to 2 hours at a time and it wasn't until I read it in the CLB - I thought they'd just fall asleep when they were tired!

As a new mum I found the hardest thing was to suss out what my baby was crying for and for me the CLB really did give me the tools to be able to do that. I know have a very happy and yes, contented, toddler.

[Sanne Panne]

I think the benefit of a routine isn't so much about you-and-husband time as some mentioned - you mainly do the baby a favour by (carefully) moving into a bit of a routine. Kids tend to love predictability. Things like waking the baby up for a feed were just not my cup of tea (not because it's evil but because I personally never feel comfortable waking a child) and distracting instead of feeding when the previous feed wasn't digested yet wasn't for me either until she was much bigger (3 months maybe, don't remember) but the idea of creating a sense of nighttime (e.g. moving a 6+ week old baby to your bedroom after 7pm instead of leaving her in the living room with lights/tv on; swaddling her which I hardly ever did during the day; keeping feeds very quiet etc) is probably a very healthy thing for a baby, it helps him/her develop the day-night instinct and get more restful sleep. To be honest, we didn't start the nighttime thing until our baby was 10 weeks old as I just didn't dare to leave her out of sight, but I will probably do it from about 6 weeks on with the next one (not talking about letting a baby cry itself to sleep but about using another room for sleeping).

I understand jojobaby's point to an extent - yes life with a baby is about the baby and not about you, and even life with a toddler (which I have now) is a hundred times more about the toddler than about you and that is as it seems to be designed by nature - but I don't think that the fact that a toddler wants to get up at night (to play or be soothed or fed) means it's best for the toddler to wake up at night. In some cases you may do the child a favour by gently teaching it something it wouldn't do by itself. A routine isn't necessarily led by egoism, it's often there for the benefit of the child. Some kids may not need any parent-guided routine, they may settle into one by themselves, but I doubt that happens to the majority of families. Hope you don't take this as a personal attack, your opinion was quite strong so I hope you don't mind an opinionated reply as part of this discussion.

[Bumpkin]

Belle - I understand what you're saying about Nick Clegg and I do feel sympathy for him struggling with a new baby as I definitely did. However, whilst I would have much sympathy with an average person in the street privately stating the same as Nick Clegg; he's a very senior politician who wants to run our country and publicly made statements that could damage someone's livelihood. So I judge him differently. Anyway, off topic - sorry.

[Keef]

R&A, I never said controlled crying was "a Gina thing", as Belle says, it was just an example of how experienced parents can still get lost and confused.

I think you're somehow taking this a bit personally. I have said at least twice on this thread, that I believe in "each to their own", and if GF works for you, then great.

Personally, I read a bit, and thought, no thanks.

[R&A]

confused... i wasn't taking things personally keef - i haven't finished her book myself yet and i certainly don't know if it will work for us (baby is just 3 weeks old) so it was a genuine question about whether gf did controlled crying

[lorraineliyanage]

I read in the Gina Ford CLB that you should give the baby "sugar water" if they are grumbling between the 3 or 4 hours she recommends between feeds (can't remember how long she says to leave them). Couldn't be bothered reading it much past that point. Breast milk should be enough for the baby, not sugar water.

I read lots of different baby books before and just after my baby was born, but abandoned them all and then just decided to go with the flow. We used to do all sorts non-gina things like let our baby hang out with us well past midnight and then let her go to bed in her Moses basket when we went to bed. Now at 15 months she has a routine that is brilliant but it's one that she came up with herself.

[Pickle]

Hey R&A... GF doesn't do controlled crying, certainly not in the first 6 months. And as others have said, it's pretty unlikely that you'd ever need to go down the CC route later on if your baby is happily in a routine. I've never had to use it with either of my babies (even though I didn't follow Gina to the letter), and our strong bedtime routine means they are always happy to go to bed in the evening.

The way Gina's books are written is probably the main reason why so many people are against her methods. But once you get past the "you must do this" writing style she's really all about doing the best for baby and the best for Mum. I remember reading the book before I had my first child and remarking to my husband that it scheduled in food for Mum, drinks of water etc, which seemed ridiculous at the time - but once the whirlwind of having a new baby hit our household I realised it was actually quite sensible :)

One thing I found really useful in her books was her advice with regards to expressing milk - I used to express so that my husband could do a bottle in the evenings and her advice on timings etc. was really useful. Also her advice for helping to increase milk production really helped me when my son's tongue tie was corrected and we were re-establishing breastfeeding.

[Keef]

The way Gina's books are written is probably the main reason why so many people are against her methods.

There is probably a lot of truth in that, to be fair.

let our baby hang out with us well past midnight and then let her go to bed in her Moses basket when we went to bed. Now at 15 months she has a routine that is brilliant but it's one that she came up with herself.

Our daughter is coming up to 9 months, and we are similar. We have tried bedtime routines, but for one reason or another (some our fault I admit), they've never really lasted, and we just figure it's best to let her decide so long as she seems happy.

That said, I hope in 6 months time when she's 15 months, she's decided to give herself a routine!!! I couldn't do CC whatever happens. NNot judging anyone who has, but just couldn't take that road.

[laurac]

With my first baby I completely took on board all the NCT stuff (or at least what the course I was on taught) about on demand feeding and letting the baby settle into her own routine so I guess I ended up doing completely the opposite of Gina. My daughter never settled into a routine, never slept for more than 40 minutes in the day, fed constantly (including at night) and it makes me sad now looking back that probably she was over-tired/over-stimulated at times and I didn't get it. I had absolutely no instinct for what to do and was completely shocked that things got so out of control which they did - after 8 months I was completely run-down and unhappy and when I finally quit breast feeding at 14 months and she started sleeping through I felt a hundred times better. I know this won't be the experience of everyone who has taken or takes this route and I look back and think to subjugate yourself completely to your child for a year is perhaps what you should do but at the time it was horrendous and if you are unhappy and tired that can't be great for your baby (or your relationship). I'm pregnant again and although I would still want to feed on demand I will definitely be dipping into Gina so I can try and get more of a routine established (without taking her advice wholesale) and not fall into the traps of last time - I definitely couldn't cope again!!

[lorraineliyanage]

Keef, we are very laidback parents, we definitely didn't follow any routine. I demand fed her, didn't give her any set nap times, no bedtime routine as I never knew what time she'd go to bed when she was smaller as quite often we'd be out and about with her in the evening.

She decided around 1 year old that she wanted to go to bed around 6 or 6.30 and mostly sleeps through till 7 or 8am. Brilliant! It does mean that we can't really go out in the evening to visit friends / restaurants which we did a LOT when she was tiny but I don't mind making that sacrifice as she'll get perkier in the evenings once she's more active. Nursery wears her out so much that she's shattered by the time we get her home.

[snowboarder]

You know - we have always had the same bedtime routine, fed regularly and naps at fairly set times. But sleep and naps are still disastrous. I think its this feeling that we have/are 'failing' despite following gina style guidance that is upsetting - and the inference that if you do follow said guidance it really will work...

[Pickle]

Just to add to this - while I followed Gina I also breastfed on demand, so the two can go hand in hand. We didn't even attempt a routine before about 6-8 weeks with either baby as I fully believe that in those first few weeks it's pointless even trying, with both it just made sense once they'd got past that totally helpless newborn eat/sleep/cry/poo phase ;-) We also kept our babies up in the evening with us in the early weeks, it was only when they became more alert and aware of light/sounds that we started with a bedtime routine.

What I found was that by the time I followed Gina, the breastfeeds had naturally started to spread themselves out anyway, so it worked well.

I remember the early days with my son - I was amazed that he was 5 weeks old yet staying awake during the day for stretches of 5 or 6 hours, grumping and crying the whole time, I kept trying to feed him, we both got frustrated. It suddenly made sense when I realised he was actually tired and life got a lot easier.

Wouldn't it be nice if each baby came with an instruction manual?! Highlighting things like I do/don't like dummies, bottles, sleeping swaddled, sucking my thumb etc.!

[randomv]

Snowboarder - it's totally wrong that anybody should make you feel like you are a failure when you are clearly doing what's right for you and your baby, but seriously are you saying that Gina Ford makes you feel like that? Or other mums and are they all CLB followers?

Personally I find that as a Gina mum I'm judged as being somehow caring less about my baby than parents who choose a different parenting style which is equally inaccurate and just as offensive (and I suspect why we all feel the need to shout so loud when our chosen method comes under fire) Such as the ridiculous suggestion that following the CLB means you have no gorgeous snuggly memories of your little baby (jojobaby) or that the baby is "an annoyance that should be seen and not heard" (Keef)Do people really believe that we leave our babies screaming in their cots until the book says it's time to get them up?!? As it happens, CLB babies often cry less becuase they are fed before they are hungry and the routines don't lead them to get overtired...

[jojobaby]

here is a comment from my seventy year old mother - (ex midwife) " have any of these GF programmed mothers given any thought to the possibility of any long lasting psychological damage caused to their neo-natal infant as a result of only means of request for attention being ignored. Controlled crying in my book is nothing short of bullying. It is common knowledge that babies need and deserve human contact. Even the much maligned upper classes recognised this and employed nannies to provide this essential care.

[R&A]

jojobaby Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> here is a comment from my seventy year old mother

> - (ex midwife) " have any of these GF programmed

> mothers given any thought to the possibility of

> any long lasting psychological damage caused to

> their neo-natal infant as a result of only means

> of request for attention being ignored. Controlled

> crying in my book is nothing short of bullying. It

> is common knowledge that babies need and deserve

> human contact. Even the much maligned upper

> classes recognised this and employed nannies to

> provide this essential care.

Are we getting our wires crossed because i've not seen GF mention CC in what i've read of her book so far and according to the comments on this thread she never suggests controlled crying???

Or is it some other aspects of GFs advice that will damage these kids?

[helena handbasket]

Have you read any of the previous posts? How does controlled crying even keep creeping into the conversation? Do you honestly believe that all of these parents are casually hanging out in the living room while baby cries for three hours? I think you believe what you want to believe, when the fact is that most parents are not letting cry and certainly do not deprive their babies of human contact. Ridiculous. Where on earth are you getting information to make such statements?

edited to say my comment was for jojobaby

[helena handbasket]

We need a laugh.......For babies to hear when parents cry........

[Pickle]

Jojobaby, Gina Ford has nothing to do with controlled crying, that's in other books (not sure which ones, but definitely not GF). Please thank your mother for her input, but perhaps it would be be constructive (?) on a thread about controlled crying!

[candj]

I'm a GF fan when it comes to the schedule which I followed loosely because both children took to it like a dream. I didn't like her methods (pitch black rooms, not making eye contact during night time feeds, etc) which I found slightly harsh and not for everyone and I couldn't bear controlled crying although I did try it with my first for 15 minutes and guess what, it worked! I do recommend the book to all of my friends who are having babies as I like the schedule bit which is good for a first time mum, whether they follow it or not is up to them.