Gina Ford fans?

[pebbles]

Hi Canadianlisa

If mine woke during the day i would try and settle by patting and reassuring but if it wasn't working, i'd just get them up and bring them downstairs, then the next nap would start earlier than gf suggested cos obviously they'd be tireder earlier. i would say i had to be flexible about the actual length of time they kipped til weaning cos i couldn't always guarantee the long sleep over lunch, in which case i'd just let him sleep longer in the arvo. i "followed" gf however took it with a pinch of salt and was flexible. after weaning i did find the lunchtime nap did become the longest all the time and has continued like that.

good luck and if you have any other questions pls do pm me

[randomv]

Canadianlisa

I think there's a bit at the end of the book about what to do when naps don't go to plan and it involves another nap in the afternoon to make up for the lost sleep.

We did GF routine but followed the Baby Whisper sshh pat and pick up put down techniques for teaching self soothing. However I have found that timing is crucial so it may be that just putting your LO down 5 mins earlier can make the different.

FWIW I did subscribe to the CLB website when my LO was a baby as he'd got to the waking every 45 mins day ornight stage and I was going insane with tiredness. I got some totally invaluable advice from very experienced Gina mums there on so many issues, even after we'd got the sleep sorted which has made a huge difference to our routines so to me it seemed like a better investment than the stack of cash I was ready to pay a night nanny to come and help us.

Good luck and as pp am happy to help if I can by PM

[Pickle]

Canadianlisa... I used to get them up and then put them in a sling - more often than not they'd then settle back down to sleep while I was sorting dinner/doing washing etc/watching TV, and then gradually both babies got better at sleeping past one sleep cycle in their cots. Otherwise just go with the flow, try to relax about it, and start afresh at the next nap time.

Good luck x

[snowboarder]

Hey smiler/littleEDfamily/largeginandtonic/hh - thanks for reassurance! It would seem I have not helped the already challenging sleep situation by taking the little horror to Australia for 3 weeks and confusing him with random holiday schedule (interestingly he napped well on the go!). Am on verge of getting help (prob not gina though!)....as I said...desperate times!! xx

[canadianlisa]

Thanks for the advice. I am going to perservere with the scheduled nap times and see how we go. One of the difficulties I have is not so much that little canuck won't sleep- she is good at sleeping- but mainly if it is on either me or her dad. So I am worried that if I pick her up then it is just reinforcing this. As I type she is in her usual evening place- sleeping on her Daddy (which is really cute). We did try to put her down and she got in a state so we picked her up again rather than have a screaming fit all night, which was the case last night which then disrupted the 10 p.m feed as she was too sleepy.

I had a look at the bit at the back and I think if I've read it right (which I may not have due to tiredness) it says to do the 10 minute, reassurance thing and if this doesn't work then, for naptime, try to get them to sleep for the alloted 2

hours by whatever means necessary- going for a walk, picking them up etc. I think the idea is that they will then realise it's naptime and that eventually you will be able to put them down. Or if it fails, then to add another nap. God it all feels a bit complicated but I am sure it will come together.

Just out of curiousity- did everyone ensure that their baby's room had none of the dreaded 'chinks of light' coming in. Did it make a difference? x

[sb]

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[pebbles]

absolutely sb - pram or car seat always worked for us so with no1 before he would ever settle in his cot and it did take a while i'd go round the block in the pram - that would take me 5 mins and then leg it home, dump the pram in the kitchen and i'd go and lie on the sofa and watch tv and sit on internet.

i think that's why we always took gf with a pinch of salt. i agreed with her "babies shouldn't be awake for more than 2 hours" and once i read this i saw that my son always was tired however when i read this i found it diff to settle in the cot during the day so i felt it was more important that he slept (no matter where) and then once his body clock was used to sleeping regularly then we battled with the daytime cot thing. with no1 it took til he was weaned for me to turn the corner with the daytime cot sleeping.

crack the daytime sleep and then crack the where????

[Pickle]

I always used to take my son out for a walk late afternoon for the nap he had at that time - meant I got out for some fresh air and exercise in the park while he had his sleep, and I used to meet up with other Mums at that time for a walk and chat.

I've got blackout blinds in both of my children's rooms, but they certainly don't block out every chink of light, and it doesn't seem to matter. I think it's good if they are able to sleep with a bit of light, as that way if you go on holiday it doesn't matter so much if there's not adequate curtains.

P x

[plimsoul]

i think what is most interesting and makes by far a more interesting doc is the fact that mothers don't feel competent enough to deal with their own babies. that their wider family structure and support is gone. i didn't read anything and followed instinct, which hey actually instinctively i felt routine was important for the baby and discovered that in part i was actually picking up from all sorts of books. i'd know this as other friends spent their spare time with baby asleep reading more about how they should be looking after baby.

why is routine good for baby: as a parent your role is to explain this crazy world that you have pushed them into. at 7 weeks i felt now was the time to introduce milestones in the day to be repeated...a routine, like adults, nature, the sun going round the planet.

gina doesn't have the TM on routine, it's an age old thing.

we are obsessed with our children and how we're bringing them up, this industry makes lots of money. aren't we lucky to have the time and cash to dwell on such things?

[KatsuQueen]

Hi, just wanted to commetn on Jojobaby's earlier post regarding holidays with extended family and bedtimes etc. Jojobaby, you are really lucky to have your extended family around you. I am Chinese and I was brought up totally without bedtimes etc. I always thought that I would bring up MiniKatsu that way - BUT there is a big difference. I am doing this all on my own (OK, with MrKatsu, it's justthe two of us).

When I was little, I was looked after by about a dozen adults, related and unrelated. I never even slept with my parents from todder age. From the age of one and a half (or so) I would sleep in the same bed with my grandparents, my Aunts, my Uncles...basically whichever bed I fell into at the end of the night. I was babysat by a series of neighbours, cousins and strangers off the street. So the burden of caring for me and my siblings was never solely on my parents. (This wasn;t in the UK, obviously)

Anyway, when I had MiniKatsu my mother was soooo worried because she thought that I would never be able to cope on my own without all the "aunties" around to help me. I use GF's methods and they really worked for me, maybe because I'm a weak lazy mother ....hahahha. I needed my rest at the end of the day becasue there was literally no-one to even make me a coffee or make sure I had a snack when I was starving.

By the way, my mother's main priority was my health and well-being. If I was not well, how could I look after a baby? Her words of advice were - if you are eating and baby cries; let him cry until you finish eating. Don;t carry him around all day, leave him in his cot. Harsh? She was only thinkging of me, her own little baby...

[helena handbasket]

KatsyQueen what a great post! I couldn't agree more.

[Smiler]

What an annoying post plimsoul!

Lucky you to have such confidence / "instinct", but not everyone is like that.

No, we don't all have extended family nearby, which is one of the reasons why this part of the forum is helpful. And yes, we are lucky to have time / money etc. that is obvious, but why is reading a book / coming on a website "obsessing"?

It can be damn hard being a new parent and if exchanging tips and chatting on a forum helps, why not?

plimsoul Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> i think what is most interesting and makes by far

> a more interesting doc is the fact that mothers

> don't feel competent enough to deal with their own

> babies. that their wider family structure and

> support is gone. i didn't read anything and

> followed instinct, which hey actually

> instinctively i felt routine was important for the

> baby and discovered that in part i was actually

> picking up from all sorts of books. i'd know this

> as other friends spent their spare time with baby

> asleep reading more about how they should be

> looking after baby.

>

> why is routine good for baby: as a parent your

> role is to explain this crazy world that you have

> pushed them into. at 7 weeks i felt now was the

> time to introduce milestones in the day to be

> repeated...a routine, like adults, nature, the sun

> going round the planet.

>

> gina doesn't have the TM on routine, it's an age

> old thing.

>

> we are obsessed with our children and how we're

> bringing them up, this industry makes lots of

> money. aren't we lucky to have the time and cash

> to dwell on such things?

[canadianlisa]

Pickles, Pebbles nd SB- am in total agreement re the walk. I have just today been out for a good walk after the bad weather has finally cleared up. So the routine is out the window but I am happy and baby Canuck had 2 good sleeps in the fresh air in her pram. But to be honest it has been a much better day than the last few spent at home.

Plimsoul- I don't think that it is about not trusting our insticts or reading our babies- I feel that I am relatively competent in doing that and certainly it is important. As lots of other posters have stated I am far away from my family and although my Mum is a wealth of information over the phone she is not here. I am also the only one at home during the day to try to enforce naps, hold the baby, keep the house in some kind of order etc etc. By the time my partner gets home it is time for the last feed and bed for the baby so he is only able to help in a limited way. In addition, babies are funny little creatures and what works one day, often does not work the next, and therefor my insticts are not enough.

Reading a lot of books, internet info helps me to consider different views and as far as I am concerned is valuable research. Although I have only used this forum a little bit so far, I have found it very useful and reassuring. Maybe you don't need this reassurance but I am a new Mum and am still learning.

[jojobaby]

wow

i really seen to be on the only one on this discussion that is really anti- routine GF and as a result i am pissing off lots of people.

i am very thick skinned so carry on - i feel zero guilt which is why at no point am i apologising for my point of view. My advice to new mothers is this. Number 1 - Do not take advice from a woman who has not ever had children.

Go on give it a go - you will be very happy -

- for at least six months you have to go with the flow - i never followed any routine of sleeping or feeding and all my kids eventually found there way - and never cried threw it. My babies never go to their own room until at least a year - that is in my opinion safe and correct. That did not mean i had to creep around and not watch TV or listen to music in my room as my baby never had to have a quiet blacked out room to sleep.

I never ever woke a sleeping baby- how annoyed are you when you hear the alarm or when you get woken up suddenly or when you are dog tired but someone is keeping you awake - why should that be any different for a baby. Sometimes my baby at six weeks feel asleep at 11 am - he was still asleep at 6pm - he was growing and needed the rest. So what if i had to stay up that night till 10pm , he just watched TV with me.

Also every child is different - How can a boy weighing in at 11Lbs have the same needs as a little girl weighing in a five Lbs - My first boy was on solids at 7 weeks ( me and my brothers all on solids by two months - and not a thing wrong with us) - he was already the size of a 5 month old baby. Even today he is twice the size of some of his peers at school - my point is - you are the mother - trust your instinct - if your baby is crying there is a reason - they are either tired , hungry , or simply want a cuddle- how can a book written for babies cover all different sizes and types. All babies are different and have their own ways you cant expect the same routine to suit all.

As for after 6 months - the baby starts to find their way and settle into a bedtime sleep anyway - there is no need to force a routine from 6 weeks.

the sleeping 12 hours a night is a mystery to me - i am interested to know if anyone has achieved this without letting the baby crying at some point - and not picking them up to settle them. None of my babies have been left the cry at any point in the night - they have all been picked up within less than a minute to be settled and come into my bed - by 3 years they all sleep anyway. I know for a fact GF does not agree with that -

[littleEDfamily]

jojobaby, once it becomes clear that someone is fanatical in their options, a meaningful debate becomes impossible, but I just can't resist asking why it's remotely relevant that most of your family is 'medical' - what sort of medical people are we talking about here? Physiotherapists, podiatrists, dentists.....radiographers... er... or some other kind of expert in parenting a small baby..?

PS My baby slept happily in her own room from only a few weeks' old. She seems fine, but I am clearly the devil incarnate.;-)

[pebbles]

I have never left my children to cry (well, no.2 occasionally has to cry cos i'm dealing with him, feeding, changing etc no.1 but never for very long - and not due to me wanting her to settle, only cos i have to).

I know i have been extremely lucky with both children, no.1 when i knew he was no longer hungry at night i would give him water instead of breast milk and within a few weeks he realised that waking up was pointless and therefore didn't.

No1 never needed the water, over time she just started waking later and later til she slept through. I did however shorten the length of breast feeds that i did at night so she wasn't taking as much over time.

I know i have been very very very lucky - however for me I do put it down to daytime routine. I DID wake a sleeping baby, my view is (and again it obviuosly depends on the babies personality as to whether they follow this) as long as the baby is getting enough food during the day they are less likely to need it at night. I again was lucky that both my children by about 6 wks fell into a 3 hourly pattern which meant that they had a proper meal in my eyes. Again, pls don't take offence if you feed on demand cos i've always thought whatever works for each family, however i thought if i fed on demand the baby would never take a proper big feed - if that makes sense.

Jojobaby - you say that sometimes your baby was asleep at 11am and still asleep at 6pm - well surely that would be the dream night time sleeping pattern - day/night confusion? why put yourself through sleepless nights when your child could obviously sleep for a good length of time?

i have totally changed my life for my children, love every second of my new life (obviously miss my old one occasionally) but having evenings with my husband, allowing our relationship to continue means just as much (and i felt that if our children were up with us all evening we wouldn't be able to do this). My mother told me when we told her i was pregnant with no1 as long as you and dh are happy then the children will be happy - your relationship always has to come first - and i totally agree.

I just want to reiterate, that i know i have been extremely lucky with my children. All children have totally different personalities and some kids take to routines easier than others. To snowboarder and others - if a routine is what you would like - then please stick with it - i pray it comes sooner rather than later.

[Pickle]

Sleeping 12 hours is not a mystery in my house, and for many of my friends it's the same. I can honestly say that my children (3, and 18 months) sleep 12 hours a night, often more, without crying. Of course they have the odd blip, but I can safely say that 99% of the time they sleep. My son, from birth, only woke once in the night for a feed at around 3am, and once on solids (at 6 months, don't even get me started on the weaned at 7 weeks that has been mentioned above!) slept from bedtime at 7pm until at least 7am. My daughter followed a very similar pattern.

I have never used "controlled crying" of any sort to achieve this. Both were breastfed (son till he was 11 months, daughter until 15 months) and weaned at 6 months.

If I follow JoJo's advice, our trip to New Zealand in Feb/March will be great fun - as I will never wake a sleeping baby, hence they will sleep all day and be awake all night, thus missing out on all interaction with their grandparents ;-)

To me, day/night distinction is one of the key factors in bringing up children. As adults we are expected to be awake at day and asleep at night - surely it's best to get this sorted in a child earlier rather than later... otherwise the routine of starting school etc. will be a huge shock!

[randomv]

canadianlisa Wrote:

> I had a look at the bit at the back and I think if

> I've read it right (which I may not have due to

> tiredness) it says to do the 10 minute,

> reassurance thing and if this doesn't work then,

> for naptime, try to get them to sleep for the

> alloted 2

> hours by whatever means necessary- going for a

> walk, picking them up etc. I think the idea is

> that they will then realise it's naptime and that

> eventually you will be able to put them down. Or

> if it fails, then to add another nap. God it all

> feels a bit complicated but I am sure it will come

> together.

>

> Just out of curiousity- did everyone ensure that

> their baby's room had none of the dreaded 'chinks

> of light' coming in. Did it make a difference? x

The getting LO to sleep even if it means going out for a walk or whatever is one thing, as it helps to reset the body clock and get him/her used to sleeping at those times but what i was really referring to is where she suggests that if the lunch time nap goes wrong you shoudl allow an extra 30 mins nap after the 2.30pm feed and again at 4.30pm because a really young baby will not get to bedtime on so little sleep. There are some other suggestions on how to tweak the routine on days when the naps go wonky.It's about 2 pages from the back of the book.

Re chinks of light, we just got an ikea blackout blind. It's definitely not chink proof! But as I said on a previous post I think the reason such importance is placed on it is to totally eliminate light as a possible cause of waking.

jojobaby, it's more of an 11 hour sleep in our house (all babies are different!) and we're very happy thanks. I've not left my baby to cry to achieve this. It is my belief (although it may not be yours which is fine) that one of my roles as a parent is to gently bring my baby from the 24 hour sleeping/feeding availability in the womb into what our society accepts as the day. For mums who go back to work this needs to be done sooner rather than later. You seem to be very closed minded about what works for others, obsessed with telling us what happens in your house, and disinterested in answering anyone's questions toyou. Just an observation.

[sb]

.

[helena handbasket]

I worked very hard to get my son on a schedule without all the crying that keeps getting mentioned. In fact he cried far less in the process than he would have otherwise, poor little thing was always so overtired. He actually seemed relieved. Some babies really do struggle to get to sleep, they don't all just drift off comfortably. Before the routine he would only fall asleep in the buggy if he dropped from exhaustion, and I don't think that's fair. He DID actually need a quiet dark room to settle because he was always so alert that he would become over-stimulated. No wonder his naps were so brief and inconsistent...... he was in the living room/buggy/car. Not exactly places I would find restful, why would he? I really didn't clue into that for a long time. He was a bit older when I finally broke down from desperation and went the schedule route, but I wish I had done it when he was much younger as I know it would have been better for him. Once I got him used to sleeping in his cot (a long and tedious but actually quite peaceful and nice process actually), he happily snuggled up and his naps became the long and luxurious kind I wish I could have. Oh and he mysteriously began to sleep 12 hrs a night. Hmmmm.

No response to jojobaby. Pointless. My 10 lb baby didn't get the memo, and certainly didn't "settle into sleep" at six months.

[sb]

.

[The Nappy Lady]

JoJoBaby,

My now 5 year old slept 12 hours a night from 10 weeks old, without any crying etc. So yes, it does happen.

My 15 month old is now, finally sleeping 7.30pm to 6am, and it has made a huge difference to the entire family, because I am no longer exhausted from spending 2 hours a night in bed with her, whilst she wriggles, breast feeds on and off and generally tries to have a party!

Whilst I have most certainly given my life over to motherhood and embraced it with open arms I don't think those final night time sessions were doing either of us any favours, and it only took a couple of nights of us lying her back down and patting her back until she went back to sleep for her to understand that the milk bar was no longer open in the middle of the night.

I know for a fact that the entire family is benefitting from not having an exhausted Mummy, waking up each morning at 6am is a joy, I virtually bounce out of bed, and my 15 month old goes into her cot very happily at bedtime, and greets me with a cheerful 'Hiya' when I go in to get her each morning. All good as far as I can see.

I do find it amazing just how contentious an issue this can be though. Really.

Molly

[littleEDfamily]

One criticism of Gina that I do find rather unfair is around her not having had her own kids. We all take advice from people who have 'never been through' our situation (doctors in particular!!!), and do I think it's entirely possible to provide sound guidance through professional, rather than personal experience. Perhaps even more so, given their perspective is not 'clouded' by emotion. (Just being devil's advocate here.)

When other parents give advice, they are, with the best intentions, almost always speaking from their own very subjective experience (and most have enough sense to recognise this). And although their tips at times are so useful, more often that advice is only relevant to someone else's child/ situation/ values. (But I still enjoy a good yarn and am fascinated by others' experiences and ideas, hence me finding this forum so addictive!)

So, although I am not a Gina Ford fan necessarily, I don't think it's fair or logical to write off her advice on the basis she's not a mother. There are some amazing midwives out there who have never had kids, for instance....

[helena handbasket]

Good point LEdF....... not to mention the fact that there are plenty of mothers out there that most of us wouldn't take advice from. We wouldn't need social services otherwise. Remember the woman who pretended her kid had been kidnapped to collect the ransom?

[trinity]

I have read Gina's book and found it extremely irritating.

There seems to be a general consensus on this thread(which I agree with) that routine is good for babies and new mothers. The problem I found with Gina's book was that although many of the ideas around routine were sound eg making time for mothers to eat, trying to make sure baby did not get overtired, the regimented schedules were too dictorial and lacking in flexibility for my tastes.

In addition I didn't think it addressed the individual needs of babies. The clearest example of this was my last baby who was a terrible sleeper from a tiny age. The solution for her sleeping problems was not routine, not blackout blinds, not swaddling but a rocking motion. Thats not a solution that Gina advocates. There will be other babies who require parental contact to help them sleep - again not a solution that Gina favours.

Overall I think there are positive and helpful points in her book and her methods will work for some babies and some families but not for others.