Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[oddlycurious]

Hello again Blanche

Enjoyed reading your latest press release: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/object-to-area-b-development/4593742804

It starts with quite the statement of intent: Tell Southwark Council that 1,000 burial plots on the Honor Oak Nature Corridor land is a destructive waste of inner London open green space.

Having read your reasons the lack of provision of space for muslim and jewish burial isn't included. Do you still believe that Southwark Council have a responsiblity to provide land for muslim and jewish burials on a large scale? Your own numbers suggest thousands of plots are needed, not hundreds.

[Blanche Cameron]

Yes oddlycurious, you're right. This is exactly what we have been saying. If Southwark Council is in the burial business, it must provide a non-racist, non-discriminatory burial service.

Is there anyone on this forum who thinks it is okay for Southwark to discriminate against any resident because of their religion?

This is just another reason why new burial plots cannot be provided in the Borough.

Here is another picture of the beautiful Camberwell Old Cemetery glade to be dug up - enjoy it while you still can.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[JoeLeg]

"Is there anyone on this forum who thinks it is okay for Southwark to discriminate against any resident because of their religion?"

Why don't you just fuck off with your retarded attempts at these strawman arguments? You know no one thinks that, but you're the kind of person who says 'if you aren't with me then you must be against me!'.

Show me evidence that non-Christian religious groups have made representations to Southwark. Go on, I'm waiting...

[oddlycurious]

Thanks for the response Blanche - just one more thing...

Yes oddlycurious, you're right. This is exactly what we have been saying. If Southwark Council is in the burial business, it must provide a non-racist, non-discriminatory burial service.

and

This is just another reason why new burial plots cannot be provided in the Borough.

So is the FOCC position that Southwark Council should provide burial plots for all religions, but outside the Borough?

[taper]

The solution is clearly to create new burial space on the "nature corridor." Then this could clearly be made suitable for all religions. Surely we can all unite behind that?

[Penguin68]

non-discriminatory burial service. I have already raised this issue - but where a religion refuses to be buried alongside other religions (demands an exclusive burial place for its coreligionists) it is being discriminatory - so should Southwark support this demand for discrimination - and if it does is it being discriminatory itself, or not? I would argue that where one group discriminate against others, supporting it in its discriminatory position is discriminatory. Southwark offers non discriminatory burials (open to all comers) - if someone wishes them to offer a discriminatory service they should be turned back. [As far as I know, you can be buried under any, or no, religious rite in the cemeteries, but some strict Abrahamic groups (Christian, Jewish and Islamic) insist on exclusive use of burial areas.}

True, there are some Christian consecrated areas, but this is a function of that religion (Anglicanism) being Established in the UK (law of the land). I personally wish it weren't. It doesn't stop people of whatever faith (or none) being buried wherever, as far as I understand it.

[Blanche Cameron]

Yes, JoeLeg, non-Christian religious groups have made representations to Southwark about their discriminatory burial service.

Imam Bilo Barrie of Peckham BECA Mosque and Mr Musharraf Chaudhury Chair of the Southwark Multifaith Forum spoke at the Cemetery Stakeholder meeting and Habiba Taslim of Haji Taslim Funerals made a written statement. The three agreed Southwark?s burial service does not provide for the majority of Muslim residents. And a complaint has been lodged with the Local Government Ombudsman by a Jewish resident.

See here: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/council-ignores-discrimination/4593814916

Southwark must carry out a full Borough burial needs assessment to find out what kind of burials residents actually require instead of destroying acres of woods and graves for a discrimatory burial service. All councils are required to provide services without religious discrimination.

The Council's Planning Meeting is tomorrow, Thursday 15 June 630pm, for applications to bury on lovely more Honor Oak Nature Corridor land. Information here: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/object-to-area-b-development/4593742804

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[nxjen]

taper Wrote:

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> The solution is clearly to create new burial space

> on the "nature corridor." Then this could clearly

> be made suitable for all religions. Surely we can

> all unite behind that?

I suggested many months ago this may be in Southwark's thinking, especially as in their Cemetery Strategy of 2011 they state at

6.2.1 "Muslim Burial: expansion of existing site (within Nunhead) on

previously topped up ground, and provision elsewhere in new layouts."

Most people could unite behind your suggestion, probably 99% or more of people, but ssw have this peculiar contradictory position of wanting all burials to cease within Southwark and yet complaining Southwark discriminate against Muslim burials. They're campaigning for one outcome that is at odds with another of their aims.

[rendelharris]

Blanche Cameron Wrote:

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> Southwark must carry out a full Borough burial

> needs assessment to find out what kind of burials

> residents actually require instead of destroying

> acres of woods and graves for a discrimatory

> burial service. All councils are required to

> provide services without religious discrimination.

If it were found that the service is discriminatory and the rules are changed, they're still going to need places to bury people, no?

[oddlycurious]

Hello again Blanche - because it looked like you missed the question

So is the FOCC position that Southwark Council should provide burial plots for all religions, but outside the Borough?

[JoeLeg]

So, Blanche, what will you do if minority religious groups still want to be buried within the borough?

[dbboy]

Similar argument developing on SE23.com

https://www.se23.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=12400&page=5

[Penguin68]

This religious mumbo-jumbo is of course simply an attempt by ssw to stop any burial in Southwark. I know I play into it myself, but it sticks in the craw. They don't actually care for the religious sensibilities of anyone - otherwise they would not be trying to stop any burials. They have no thought for the living (apart from themselves and fellow picnickers). The fact that they fellow-travel with the far right suggests that their real care for people of Jewish or Islamic faith is pretty tenuous as well. But they are equal opportunity haters - they hate anyone who wants to be buried in Southwark.

[Penguin68]

Similar argument developing on SE23.com

I see Lewis is back on his old hobby horse of accusing anyone who disagrees with him as having a vested interest in funerals. Obviously that's the way his mind works (nobody would bother to have an opinion if they couldn't benefit from it financially) - I am glad that in fact I believe his obvious distrust and hatred of his fellow person is misplaced.

[Blanche Cameron]

Pengin68: Are you really saying residents should change the way they practice their faith or go private? That would be illegal. Council services cannot be just for residents whose face or faith 'fits'.

If Southwark chooses to provide a burial service it must do so without religious discrimination. That means doing a Borough burial needs assessment, still not done.

The campaign's aim is to protect the nature, the graves and heritage of the Camberwell Cemeteries by making them nature reserves.

We are showing the many reasons why Southwark?s destruction is wrong and must stop - including religious discrimination, burial and building over war graves, destruction of woods and nature, digging up families? graves, no financial scrutiny, no environmental impact assessments, flood risk issues, lack of consultation...and more.

The photo is beautiful Camberwell Old Cemetery woods that Southwark want to cut down next.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[oddlycurious]

Hello again Blanche - are you OK? You keep missing this question so I'll just put it back here for you

So is the FOCC position that Southwark Council should provide burial plots for all religions, but outside the Borough?

They are your words in the reply a few posts up; I just want to be sure you're not misrepresented.

[Penguin68]

Pengin68: Are you really saying residents should change the way they practice their faith or go private? That would be illegal. Council services cannot be just for residents whose face or faith 'fits'.

Actually, if their faith requires them not to be buried near others not of their faith because that in some way would 'pollute' them - then yes, I am saying that. Many people who are Jews or Moslems (or Christians) do not hold such rigid views - some do.

Councils should not be obliged to be discriminatory on behalf of others who discriminate. Moslems (or ultra-orthodox Jews) who do not want their girl children educated with or mixing with boys have to send them to private schools if no local single sex school is available. As do those who object to such things as Evolutionary theory being taught. Or who insist on a specifically religious curriculum. In education at least Councils can determine not to offer religious specific education - even where religions can look for financial support of religious teaching (to some extent). Even within Islamic schools which receive state funding sexual segregation is stopped when it is seen to occur. For independent Islamic schools this is not so, I believe.

There are a number of funerary practices (exposing the dead in Towers of Silence - as does the Parsee version of Zoroastrianism; open air cremation as practised by Hindus) which are illegal in the UK - but otherwise Southwark does not, I believe, worry about what words are said over a corpse etc. Nor about the orientation of the grave if that is an issue. There are practical issues about burials with 24 hours. They do even try to set aside specific areas in cemeteries for those for whom segregation in death is important - though I personally don't think they should.

So, to answer your question - yes, I do think that those who wish to segregate themselves from other people should not be looking for council funding to support this. We live in an inclusive society. If people want to exclude themselves from that, they should certainly be allowed to do so, but it should be at their expense.

[Blanche Cameron]

Penguin68: So you personally condemn the faith practices of many Southwark residents of Muslim and other faiths. This explains why you are able to support Southwark Council's religious discrimination. That's all.

You could always start a new petition to Southwark Council to promote religious discrimination on their website instead of pretending to provide burial fairly for all residents including meeting their faith needs in burial.

Meanwhile we will continue to campaign to save the Camberwell Cemeteries as nature reserves and point out what Southwark is doing along the way.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[rendelharris]

Blanche Cameron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Penguin68: So you personally condemn the faith

> practices of many Southwark residents of Muslim

> and other faiths. This explains why you are able

> to support Southwark Council's religious

> discrimination. That's all.

Oh get oop the street Blanche, Penguin gave you a very clear and articulate exposition of his point of view, a perfectly reasonable position which stated that different faiths should be accommodated as much as possible but that if they required more than the council could reasonably offer they would have to look elsewhere.

And anyway, you don't want anyone of any faith buried in the cemeteries, so all this alleged concern on your part about burial equality is so much elephant gravy and you know it, you just see religion as another card for you to bluff with. I can just imagine you getting people of faith to sign your petition by telling them Southwark discriminate against them, never mentioning that if you have your way they won't be able to be buried there anyway.

[oddlycurious]

Hey Blanche - over here!

So is the FOCC position that Southwark Council should provide burial plots for all religions, but outside the Borough?

They're your words, as posted further up this page.

"This is just another reason why new burial plots cannot be provided in the Borough."

It's a very specific phrase and a change in approach by FOCC. Not provided BY the Borough, but IN the Borough. You'd be happy with Southwark Council continuing to provide a burial service as long as it didn't impact you locally? Is this correct?

[Penguin68]

Penguin68: So you personally condemn the faith practices of many Southwark residents of Muslim and other faiths. This explains why you are able to support Southwark Council's religious discrimination. That's all.

On a personal level I condemn, but only in the sense that I don't endorse any religious belief - I am an atheist and happy to be so. If others want to exercise their religious beliefs, and as long as these don't impinge on the liberties of others, including others of their faith who may happen to be women, or gay, or liberal, or believe in liberal education, or the outcomes of science, or eating (or not eating) particular foods, or wearing particular clothes (or not) then I am relaxed. If religious people want to exercise elements of their religion which suggest that they don't hold others, or others' views worthy of respect, then I would prefer that they did that on their own recognisance and expense, and not on the public purse.

Southwark DOES NOT discriminate religiously. Their cemeteries are open to all faiths and none to be buried in. You are creating controversy where there is none, in a wholly despicable and divisive manner. Some of your posts come close to inciting hate crime, by stirring religious controversy where there is none.

[ruffers]

Blanche Cameron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Penguin68: So you personally condemn the faith

> practices of many Southwark residents of Muslim

> and other faiths. This explains why you are able

> to support Southwark Council's religious

> discrimination. That's all.

Come on Blanche. Your standards of argument on here aren't great but even you're better than that.

[Blanche Cameron]

Oddlycurious: We have never campaigned against the provision of burial and we never will.

The 2012 strategy was passed on condition Southwark explored out-of-borough burial. Like the environmental impact assessment, borough burial needs assessment, and families? consultation, this has never been done. Southwark must stop and do these before any further destruction takes place.

We are against burial in inner London because green space, nature, woods and history and all their benefits to people for health, nature, beauty, tranquility and knowledge are far too important to be destroyed just to sell burial plots.

Another photo is attached of what Southwark is destroying for burial plots without exploring alternatives.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[dbboy]

Blanche, "We have never campaigned against the provision of burial and we never will".

You have previously stated that you want all burials to cease in Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries. So you are either contradicting yourself or just blatantly do not tell the truth.

Oh, almost forgot to say, can't wait till tomorrow when the Council grant permission and proceed with their plans, leaving you well, no where to go.

[nxjen]

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