Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[Blanche Cameron]

Alex_b, Penguin is right except there are around 48,000 public graves on Area Z by Underhill Road. These are just the latest acres being developed for burial - but Southwark plans to dig up or mound over almost every area of both cemeteries - see their strategy here: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/plans/4588581416

Edhistory: We?re naming places like people always have done - Honor Oak Nature Corridor includes Devonshire Rd, Garthorne Rd and One Tree Hill Nature Reserves, Brenchley Gardens and Camberwell New Cemetery - HONC if you like nature.

Here?s a photo of a bee on what some might call a weed - Save Southwark Weeds!

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[JoeLeg]

No comment on nxjen's post then Blanche?

Thought not...

[oddlycurious]

Lewis, you're a singularly unpleasant little man if you think this contributes to 'saving southwark woods' today

[Blanche Cameron]

I was wrong about ?sounding the alarm? on Southwark developing over dozens of CWGC war graves, apologies.

We wish we had known about the war graves two years ago. Southwark did not declare the locations of all 48 CWGC war graves in their planning applications and we had no reason to think there were more than the five. And it appears they only contacted the CWGC around September 2016, despite starting work in February.

Thanks OddlyCurious for linking to our tweet. Southwark?s discriminatory burial service does indeed exclude most Muslim residents. They are also local people who would probably prefer to be buried locally. Most are forced to go outside the borough to private cemeteries to be buried. This is clearly wrong. Here is a link to that information.

http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/burial-discrimination-inquiry/4593829830

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[JoeLeg]

I think oddlycurious was more pointing out the fact that Lewis likes to make jokes about terrorist attacks and use the occasions pretty inappropriately to make political hay for your little cause.

Nasty of him, and nasty of you to support him in it.

[dbboy]

So, its back to supposed burial discrimination for the time being then is it? Why don't you try and take Southwark to the Equal Opportunities Commission, can't wait to see you get laughed out the door.

[oddlycurious]

Hello Blanche!

I think you misunderstood my post; easy mistake to make when you're used to interpreting things to your own end. Just to be perfectly clear - I was calling out Lewis (and SSW) for the divisive and ill-timed horsepoop you keep spouting. You couldn't give a toss about Muslim burials in Southwark, you couldn't give a toss about Jewish burials in Southwark, you don't give a toss about war graves in Southwark, the one and only thing you are concerned about is where you can have a walk on a Sunday morning.

You claim you're supported by thousands? Prove it. Start fund raising in earnest for the oft-mentioned injunction. I'm sure a comedian of Lewis' standing in the community will have no trouble organising a benefit concert to this end. You weren't threatened with legal costs - you were told you may be liable. Actually do something other than flap around the peripheries moaning about the number of trees lost.

[Penguin68]

It's good that Blanche can (finally) admit to error, but once again:-

We wish we had known about the war graves two years ago. Southwark did not declare the locations of all 48 CWGC war graves in their planning applications and we had no reason to think there were more than the five. And it appears they only contacted the CWGC around September 2016, despite starting work in February.

Southwark has NO responsibility for identifying or marking 'war graves'. This is the responsibility of the CWGC. Southwark included in its plans references to the 5 graves it did know about (and I assume the CWGC knew about as well) but it is not tasked with, or resourced to, undertake general surveys to identify particular classes of dead people. Once the existence of wholly unanticipated burials was (probably fortuitously) uncovered, Southwark has worked closely with the CWGC to address these.

There will be many people buried in the cemeteries who are also worthy of respect, but who did not die in war, or did die as a consequence of war but were not in the services. There is a lady buried along one of the paths who is noted down as 'a casualty of war' - possibly killed in a bombing raid, as so many were.

And, once again - the 'equality and anti-discrimination' actually practiced by ssw is to wish to ban everyone from being buried in Southwark - and to force everybody to be buried out of area 'in private cemeteries'.

It is possible to argue that religious groups who chose not to be buried where others of different faiths or none are buried (i.e. in wholly exclusive cemeteries) should not be being catered for by a council which is itself anti-discriminatory. There are real moral and philosophical arguments about whether failing to fall in with a discriminatory practice of one group is itself being discriminating. And there are real issues about the ability of municipal cemeteries to offer the turn-round (burial within 24 hours) that some faiths require.

[oddlycurious]

Special mention to SSW for remembering the plight of trees at 11am when the rest of the country fell silent to remember those caught up in the weekend's events.

[taper]

The last redoubt of the campaign seems now to be to demand an archaeological survey of COC. So trees, through body fluids, to religious discrimination, veterans and now archaeology. Is this the football equivalent of sending your keeper up for a corner?

[edhistory]

Ms Cameron was also doing archaeology in 2012.

The National Planning Policy Framework and Archaeology

[nxjen]

Has to be a wind-up?? As has been stated many times, when the land was bought by the Burial Board of St Giles' Vestry it was meadowland that had never been built upon. The most an archaeological survey will find is the odd clay pipe or perhaps a coin. There is no lost city of Underhillium lying underneath.

I should also be very interested to learn how an archaeological survey can be undertaken without disturbing the remains of the thousands buried there which ssw profess should be allowed to rest in peace.

[dbboy]

And are ssw going to pay for any such works, surely if they want it they should fund it.

[oddlycurious]

SSW single aim is to disrupt the work; they know they can't stop it, they haven't managed a single cohesive argument and are now behaving like sulky children who didn't get their own way.

Blanche and Lewis - you know for ?500 you could have run a candidate in the election? You wouldn't have got more than a few dozen votes but you would have had a new platform for your tin foil hat meanderings.

[oddlycurious]

Actually I'm all for the archaeological study. Sure, they'll have to close off the area for safety and yeah, dig everything up, but if that's what SSW wants

[Blanche Cameron]

We regret not fielding an election candidate ? we have made many mistakes but here we are.

Penguin68 every point you?ve made in your post is wrong:

How is the CWGC supposed to know Southwark was about to bury over war graves? Second, they are not ?wholly unanticipated burials? they are all on the war memorial and can easily be found on the CWGC database, as has been pointed out.

Third, if Southwark has no intention of providing a burial service for most of its 30,000 Muslim residents it should say so. Southwark Council discriminates against most Muslims and Jews in its burial service ? shame on Southwark.

We are informing archaeologists of the ongoing destruction of this Victorian site. http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/why-no-archaeological-survey/4593895889

As Ian Wingfield knows, we are going to raise every issue that is wrong with these projects ? and there is so much wrong with them.

Pretty picture attached.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[edhistory]

> We are informing archaeologists of the ongoing destruction of this Victorian site. [savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

The last review of Southwark APZs was done in 2015. It can be found on the Southwark Council web-site.

[JoeLeg]

Blanche Cameron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We regret not fielding an election candidate ? we

> have made many mistakes but here we are.

You certainly have...

> Penguin68 every point you?ve made in your post is

> wrong:

>

No he's not. You are. Have you actually SPOKEN to anybody at CWGC? Southwark, for all their faults, IS NOT REQUIRED to do the job of the CWGC. How on earth you believe otherwise is astounding.

> How is the CWGC supposed to know Southwark was

> about to bury over war graves?

It is CWGC's remit. Like it or not other bodies are not required to report to them.

Second, they are

> not ?wholly unanticipated burials? they are all on

> the war memorial and can easily be found on the

> CWGC database, as has been pointed out.

>

So what? Irrelevant.

> Third, if Southwark has no intention of providing

> a burial service for most of its 30,000 Muslim

> residents it should say so. Southwark Council

> discriminates against most Muslims and Jews in its

> burial service ? shame on Southwark.

>

You've been flogging this horse a long time, circling back round to it ever since the CWGC did not come down on your side. Your group has been scathing about religion in the past, but feels perfectly happy trying to ride that horse. Shame on you more like, not that you have any.

> We are informing archaeologists of the ongoing

> destruction of this Victorian site.

> http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/why-no-archaeolog

> ical-survey/4593895889

>

Good luck, you'll need it. Are those straws cutting your hand yet?

> As Ian Wingfield knows, we are going to raise

> every issue that is wrong with these projects ?

> and there is so much wrong with them.

>

A lot of people disagree with you, but you insult or ignore them. You have no respect for those who want something else.

[peckman]

for gods sake everyone . give it a rest . there are more important things to worry about.

[edhistory]

peckman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> for gods sake everyone . give it a rest . there

> are more important things to worry about.

This thread is about the campaign to deny local people local burials.

[oddlycurious]

Peckman - this is the arguing about cemeteries room. You want room 12A, next door.

[Blanche Cameron]

very funny Oddlycurious.

JoeLeg/Penguin68: Are you really saying cemetery owners should NOT contact the War Graves Commission before digging up or mounding over graves? That they SHOULDN'T look to find out who and where soldiers are? Just out of simple respect for World War soldiers and their families? Or families of anyone buried in their cemeteries? William Stanlake VC was buried in a public grave, only recently rediscovered and a headstone put up for him - by the Victoria Cross society not by Southwark Council who would have dug him up without even looking.

Hundreds of thousands of people's graves are at risk and all their records are online - Southwark has no excuse not knowing who they are and where they are and ensuring they do not destroy history and heritage. There should be proper investigation of what exists in a cemetery and where, before it is developed wholesale.

Southwark are piling construction waste on graves, driving roads over them, then putting their spades into the ground and digging up thousands of people's remains. The only reason they aren't marking all CWGC war graves with headstones is because they designed the scheme first, then contacted the CWGC. This shows at the very least an incredible lack of respect and at worst an intention to do whatever they want without concern for war graves, families, history or heritage.

http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/developing-over-war-graves/4593882928

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[rendelharris]

Blanche Cameron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> William Stanlake VC was buried in a public grave,

> only recently rediscovered and a headstone put up

> for him - by the Victoria Cross society not by

> Southwark Council who would have dug him up

> without even looking.

Looking online at the Coldstream Guards message board and others, it appears that Stanlake's grave was in the middle of the very areas of tangled undergrowth you want to save, so how could anyone have known it was there or gone to pay their respects? It seems that as with so many things you swing through 180 degrees depending on which argument suits your cause, it really doesn't help your credibility.

[Borky]

38 pages.

That's an entire rain forest of hypothetical internet trees you have all destroyed whilst playing this wretched game of one upmanship over people long dead you never knew.

[dbboy]

This has NOTHING to do with a wretched game of oneupmanship, it is ALL about highlighting, and holding people to account when they have blatantly lied and distorted the truth to suit their own argument.