Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[JoeLeg]

deleted - double post.

[dbboy]

1. Who are the Officers of FOCC?

2. Where is the constitution of FOCC and is it publicly available?

3. Are FOCC meetings minuted and where are the meeting minutes published?

4. What is the relationship between FOCC and SSW?

5. How are FOCC funds managed?

6. When are you actually serving Southwark Council with an injunction?

And finally Why were you barred by FONC?

[Blanche Cameron]

JoeLeg: It's a shame you didn't come over and say hello.

It was great to meet so many hundreds of people who had already heard about Southwark's horrific actions and plans and were against them.

Please come to the Families and Friends Day on 25th June - meet 2pm Camberwell New Cemetery Gates Brenchley Gardens SE23 3RD

We will be informing people again of Southwark's actions and plans digging up or mounding over almost half a million graves for resale - and felling acres of woods 'in the way'. All welcome.

http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/families-protest-grave-robbery/4593842405

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[andrewc]

Blanche, I noticed that you were not inside Nunhead Cemetery. Was there a reason for that?

[JoeLeg]

"JoeLeg: It's a shame you didn't come over and say hello."

If you think I'm giving Lewis another opportunity to insult me and threaten me, you've another thing coming. He thinks he's pretty hard, doesn't he? Likes to try and intimidate people, eh? Swear at them? Call them names? He chucks his aggression around pretty freely, he wants to be careful with that.

[Sally Eva]

Blanche Cameron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Near total support for protecting and preserving

> the cemeteries as nature reserves.

> Over 700 signatures collected at a Nunhead

> Cemetery Open Day Saturday.

>

> People are against this for so many reasons.

>

>

I'm sure they are. What did the petition which they signed say?

[edhistory]

Some of the very young people in the photographs may have been unable to read the petition.

[Penguin68]

It's worth noting several things about the petition - the wording of which I have not seen.

(1) Many people sign petitions without really reading them, particularly where they may be responding to things said (or to banners etc.) which do not exactly match the petition's wording.

(2) The way that the case is presented may be biased - 'stop Southwark desecrating war graves' for instance would be something many people would agree with (and the fact that there are no plans so to do would be irrelevant to their support). 'Stop Southwark destroying nature' similarly. The actual, complex and nuanced impacts of Southwark's actual plans are very unlikely to be effectively communicated in these circumstances.

(3) Even where addresses or post-codes are collected for a petition they are, in my experience, rarely carefully scrutinised. Although those coming to this particular open day are quite likely to be 'local' they are not necessarily so. When last in Pisa (a month or so ago) I had to argue strongly with someone collecting signatures for a petition about legalising drugs that, as a non Pisan (and non Italian) my support was frankly irrelevant to. I suspect that many potential signers may be less punctilious, especially if pressed to sign.

(4) Even where the method of communicating their ideas was wholly unbiased and fact-based (any estimates as to the chances of that?) and even where only genuinely local people took part, anyone who disagreed with ssw's position has no vehicle in which to express his/ her disagreement. The 'votes' for are counted, without any mechanism for collecting or counting votes against.

So, I'm glad if people had a good day at in Nunhead, but what else happened there is wholly irrelevant to anything.

[Blanche Cameron]

The petition to save the Camberwell Cemeteries states:

?We petition the London Borough of Southwark to stop destroying trees, open spaces and graves in Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries and make the cemeteries nature reserves.?

Over 14,000 people have signed our petition -- 10,000+ online and 4000+ on paper.

Anyone could start a group or petition to support Southwark?s redevelopment of the cemeteries, if they desire.

Added: If you would like to sign the petition to save the graves and trees, please go http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[dbboy]

Are these questions to hard for you to answer as you much prefer to ignore them? It really is not hard you know.

1. Who are the Officers of FOCC?

2. Where is the constitution of FOCC and is it publicly available?

3. Are FOCC meetings minuted and where are the meeting minutes published?

4. What is the relationship between FOCC and SSW?

5. How are FOCC funds managed?

6. When are you actually serving Southwark Council with an injunction?

And finally Why were you barred by FONC?

Lets continue the debate!!!!!!!!!

[Penguin68]

?We petition the London Borough of Southwark to stop destroying trees, open spaces and graves in Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries and make the cemeteries nature reserves.?

(1) - Although trees are being removed in the clearance phase, there will be replanting (hopefully of the right species at appropriate distances from each other to allow proper growth showing the full glory of the trees planted). Southwark has estimated the net loss (if any) of proper mature trees (as opposed to scrub and unplanned sapling growth) to be small.

(2) The 'open spaces' are a moot point - some of it is currently hard-standing as I understand, so hardly the basis for a 'nature reserve'

(3) In your petition you do not say - 'stop any more burials in Southwark at all' - quite a key part of your intent. Many people believe (you apparently have done so in the past) that the designated status of the existing cemeteries somehow makes them a protected or nature reserve, so many people will assume, particularly outside Nunhead cemetery, that what you are asking for is the status quo, and not a change of use. Indeed you do not make it clear that the 'destruction of graves' includes the mounding of invisible grave sites (no memorials) to allow more burials.

And you have not said what other statements were being made around the signing sessions which might have led people to misunderstand what they were signing. As I have said, many people sign street petitions without really attending to the actual words they are signing.

[Blanche Cameron]

dhboy: As if we are doing this for the money.

Here are more photos at Nunhead Cemetery Open Day.

http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/locals-want-project-stopped/4593871923

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[edhistory]

Ms Cameron missed this:

1. Who are the Officers of FOCC?

2. Where is the constitution of FOCC and is it publicly available?

3. Are FOCC meetings minuted and where are the meeting minutes published?

4. What is the relationship between FOCC and SSW?

5. How are FOCC funds managed?

6. When are you actually serving Southwark Council with an injunction?

And finally Why were you barred by FONC?

[dbboy]

Lewis, it's not about money it's about accountability, so why are the questions so troublesome for you to answer?

[dbboy]

You say you are FOCC, well in my book, that quite simply makes you ACCOUNTABLE, so I ask again;

1. Who are the Officers of FOCC?

2. Where is the constitution of FOCC and is it publicly available?

3. Are FOCC meetings minuted and where are the meeting minutes published?

4. What is the relationship between FOCC and SSW?

5. How are FOCC funds managed?

6. When are you actually serving Southwark Council with an injunction?

And finally Why were you barred by FONC?

And by the way, if you cannot or fail to answer what in effect are some Very easy questions, I believe you are unfit to call yourselves FOCC.

Let's have the debate, that's what I and others are seeking from you, and that includes answering questions that are asked of you as you state you are FOCC.

[Burbage]

dbboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You say you are FOCC, well in my book, that quite

> simply makes you ACCOUNTABLE, so I ask again;

A more immediate question might be what's happening to the collected signatures? Who holds them now, was a fully-compliant Fair Processing Notice issued, and were appropriate contact details provided?

Such minutiae are often overlooked, but Data Protection doesn't just cover electronic data and SSW/FOCC don't appear to have either a privacy policy or a physical address. As I'd hate anyone to get into any more trouble on account of such minor lapses, I'd suggest they sort that out first.

As for the other questions, if it's nothing more than a bunch of people (an 'unincorporated association') then then they don't need to publish anything or be registered anywhere (except with HMRC, should they sell anything or take money from people/organisations under the FOCC/SSW name). As far as the public is concerned, FOCC/SSW is just a name, it's not a legal entity, and therefore cannot sue anyone, be sued or (for that matter) organise petitions. That is all done by the individual members as individuals, each of which is exactly as accountable as any other individual would be, except for the directors, who are personally legally liable for the consequences of any actions taken in the name of the organisation.

[oddlycurious]

Anyone can call themselves a Friends Of... organisation, in the same way anyone can call themselves Doctor whatever. However, if they've adopted the name and displaced a group who were already in place that's not particularly pleasant.

[Blanche Cameron]

The Camberwell Cemeteries Working Group is focused mainly on saving the green spaces of the two cemeteries.

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries and the Save Southwark Woods campaign are working to protect the green spaces but also all the graves and the memorials. That is why FOCC reaches out to families and friends of those buried there to inform them about what is happening.

Family Day is Sunday 25th June, meet 2pm Camberwell New Cemetery Gates, info here:

http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/families-protest-grave-robbery/4593842405

Attached is a photo today of an area in the Old Cemetery that the Working Group and FOCC are fighting together to save.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[treehugger]

Blanche, you are doing everyone's heads in.

[Penguin68]

Old Cemetery Flowers...

More like Old Cemetery Weeds - I note you have never posted either photographs of the wonderful daffodil displays in the early spring - or the growing (and will have flowers) meadow sections - but then, these are in the actual working cemetery and not the abandoned area of scrub. It would have been possible to argue for a 'woodland' planting in part of the recovered areas (in fact, clearly the sections along the Underhill boundary have been somewhat planted in this fashion) - but that would have been to look for helpful compromise - not part of the ssw shtick which is all about confrontation and half truths.

And let's get it straight - what you want isn't a better cemetery - it's no cemetery, no burials - no use. Just another area for dog walkers. And foxes, and rats, and Japanese Knotweed and other invasive plants. Because there's no money for yet another pleasure palace for those who hate the living (people) - although apparently, by your posts, you worship the dead, as long as they are long dead and have a military background - and love only a muddle of trees. Because working cemeteries are very much for the living.

[dbboy]

As you have not had the courtesy to provide answers I'll do it for you.

1. Who are the Officers of FOCC?

We don't have none

2. Where is the constitution of FOCC and is it publicly available?

What's a constitution????

3. Are FOCC meetings minuted and where are the meeting minutes published?

Naaaaaa, we meet down the pub

4. What is the relationship between FOCC and SSW?

Errr well, errrrrrr, their ain't one

5. How are FOCC funds managed?

"As if we are doing this for the money"

6. When are you actually serving Southwark Council with an injunction?

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, we're STILL thinking about it.

And finally Why were you barred by FONC?

Well, we was outside.

So, FOCC is really just made up, just like the whole rest of ssw, its all one big shenanigans, nuff said, nuff time wasted, lots of hot air and plenty of inaction.

[edhistory]

dbboy:

I don't think you'll get answers from the FOCCers.

[Blanche Cameron]

You made me laugh - Save Southwark?s Weeds!

But mostly you?ve stopped talking about Southwark?s plans - cutting down acres of trees to mound over and dig up the dead for burial plots. Are you beginning to realise how bad it is?

FOCC?s Family Day is on 25th June - come and hear about Southwark?s plans, we?ll have the 2012 Burial Strategy with us. Meet 2pm Camberwell New Cemetery Gates:

http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/families-protest-grave-robbery/4593842405

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[dbboy]

How can you have a family day when FOCC and ssw don't even exist, they're mere figments of your imagination, well that's if you can call it imaginative, now let me see, NO imagination whatsoever.

[JoeLeg]

Blanche, that is a tragically bad attempt at a strawman argument.

2/10, must try harder...