Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[Penguin68]

I suggest you give up and ask penguin what changes he/she would suggest

Well...that's a target on my back, then...

[oddlycurious]

Penguin - could you tell them to vent their spleens at the estate agents who failed to mention the area near the houses they were selling was actually a viable cemetery instead of South London's answer to 100 Acres Wood?

[Penguin68]

Penguin - could you tell them to vent their spleens at the estate agents who failed to mention the area near the houses they were selling was actually a viable cemetery instead of South London's answer to 100 Acres Wood?

Actually, that's a little unfair - I moved to living close to COC about 30 years ago - it was already ceasing to be active and shortly, and for 10 to 15 years after, it was effectively closed for new burials - that was when the near criminal neglect of some areas started, including conniving at fly-tipping.

It was only a few years ago that the cemetery was brought back into use, and proper care and reclamation work of neglected areas was undertaken. So people who started to live near the cemetery around 1994 to, perhaps, 2010 (these dates aren't accurate, but simply an approximation from my memory) might have thought that the area was (at least becoming) a wild(ish) wood. I am very glad that the cemetery has been brought back to its primary purpose, and money spent on turning what was becoming an over-run dump back into something it is pleasant, and safe, to walk round, but I understand that not everyone would have the same view.

However the protests did start long after the cemetery was brought back into use, and I suspect that many of the protesters, those who do live close, may not have my history of knowing it at 'full neglect'. But there are people who would have moved close when there weren't burials taking place, and would not have been aware (were even the council?) that it would be brought back into use. Had the neglect continued, however, I suspect that the cemetery (or large portions of it) would have had to be closed completely on safety grounds.

[nxjen]

I wonder what the solicitors' searches found during the conveyancing?

[JoeLeg]

oddlycurious Wrote:

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> Blanche, it's this sort of thing that doesn't help

> your cause:

>

> That was the only hearing - Chancellor Petchey

> threatened us with Southwark's legal costs if we

> continued to defend the trees and graves through

> the Consistory Court, forcing us to withdraw

>

> So the chancellor said if you continued to defend

> the trees you would have to pay Southwark's legal

> costs? or, and I'm guessing this is more likely,

> you were told that if you wished to continue your

> challenge you would be liable for costs if you

> were unsuccessful? That's not a threat, that's

> standard practice.

This. Very much this.

Blanche, you're an idiot if you don't understand how the law works on this matter.

[Penguin68]

I wonder what the solicitors' searches found during the conveyancing?

I suspect that for a long time there would have been nothing to find - the cemetery was being ignored. It was still (evidently) a cemetery - and any buyer should have been aware of this by looking or looking on a map - but how (much) it was being used would have been a matter for observation. Until the decision was made to work on it, clear sections and start to mound and or/ re-use existing grave sites there wouldn't have been much to find, certainly not before, I would guess, 2010 or later. A good solicitor (or land agent) might have reminded buyers that there was a cemetery and that it hadn't been closed, perhaps, but I'm not sure. Caveat Emptor. There has never been a change of use for the cemeteries (ssw wishes there had been) or any proposal to change use. I am not sure a search would have found anything.

[Otta]

I still think this entire thing is a live comedy instalment that will be Lewis'' greatest work.

[Sue]

So do I, but "greatest"is not a word I would apply to anything relating to Lewis.

[JoeLeg]

Otta Wrote:

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> I still think this entire thing is a live comedy

> instalment that will be Lewis'' greatest work.

If he is then he's fully in character. I saw him in the cemetery the other evening with some papers in his hand muttering to himself and no doubt plotting the demise of Chancellor Petchey.

[Blanche Cameron]

Yes, the cemeteries are becoming less beautiful.

BTW It?s a bit cheeky to slag off Lewis when he's not allowed to reply.

We?ll be at Nunhead Cemetery Open Day on Saturday, outside the main gates on the pavement at Linden Grove. Come say hello. From 11.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemetreies / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[oddlycurious]

BTW doesn't stop him reading the forum and screengrabbing for the SSW Twitter account

[rendelharris]

Blanche Cameron Wrote:

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> Yes, the cemeteries are becoming less beautiful.

>

> BTW It?s a bit cheeky to slag off Lewis when he's

> not allowed to reply.

Oh no, they're making the cemeteries ugly by burying people in them! When will this madness cease?

I think Lewis lost any rights to consideration when he started asking people on Twitter to "expose" posters' identities.

[dbboy]

Please can we return to the debate being had predominately by Penguin and Blanche for ssw.

BTW the crosses are there to mark the grave and because the ground needs to settle following an internment, before a headstone can be put set in place. It is a normal procedure.

I do not believe anyone is "slagging off Lewis", posters are just speculating about what he is in it for.

[JoeLeg]

Blanche Cameron Wrote:

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> Yes, the cemeteries are becoming less beautiful.

>

> BTW It?s a bit cheeky to slag off Lewis when he's

> not allowed to reply.

>

Hello Pot? Hi, it's Kettle here. You're black.

Lewis lost his right to be involved when he demonstrated he can't handle people disagreeing with him.

[Penguin68]

Yes, the cemeteries are becoming less beautiful.

Three things to note here - firstly any newly dug grave will look less 'beautiful' than one that has weathered in, has proper grave furniture etc, around it. You are normally advised to leave up to a year before adding monuments to allow the grave to settle. Of course these graves are not actually in the areas now being prepared for new burials - which will look much worse at the moment, without proper landscaping, replanting and time to blend in. The greatest gardens in the world had some pretty horrendous 'before' pictures during e.g. hard landscaping.

Secondly - beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder - I find the established parts of the graveyard wonderful and interesting to look at, and to walk through - I quite accept that others would prefer different sorts of landscape however, of which there is a lot locally in all the parks around us.

Thirdly - the serried ranks of new burials very much support the view taken by Southwark that they are supplying a real need. Which is - sort of - what we expect councils to do.

And (by the way) - if people take this thread as just a dialogue between me and ssw then that's a shame. Many others have things of value to contribute on both the pro more burials and the anti sides. And I hope on how Southwark can best deliver its promises - including issues of grave furniture preservation even after re-use and re-planting policies. And perhaps sensitive treatment of 75+ year old graves when these are of infants/ children - where survivors and direct mourners are more likely still to exist.

[oddlycurious]

Genuinely think it's a step in the right direction that Blanche is engaging with voices that disagree with her. I doubt a middle ground can be found but I'm more inclined to listen to someone who is trying rather than someone who spends their time releasing hyperbolic statements and ignoring reasoned responses.

If only all members of SSW were so restrained I'm sure more people would attend their meetings.

[Blanche Cameron]

Funny how times change. Southwark resisted Nunhead Cemetery becoming a community managed nature reserve - now they champion it. Camberwell Old Cemetery still has ten acres of beautiful cemetery woods. Brenchley Gardens Camberwell New has beautiful woods on One Tree Hill.

Come and introduce yourself at Nunhead Cemetery on Saturday. We'll have a table on the pavement outside the main gates.

Photo attached. Can you guess where this photo was taken?

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[taper]

Why have FoNC banned SSW from their open day?

[Sally Eva]

Possibly because Nunhead Cemetery isn't "a community-managed nature reserve" but is still open for burials (although nearly full, see below) and not run by FONC.

public information about it (published by southwark council) is here: http://www.southwark.gov.uk/parks-and-open-spaces/parks/nunhead-cemetery

I'm tending to the view that SSW is just having a laugh.

[oddlycurious]

So FoNC have asked SSW not to attend and they're going anyway?

*slow hand clap*

What was all that about respecting the dead again?

[Penguin68]

What was all that about respecting the dead again?

Evidence suggests that it is the living they don't respect, from their ad hominem attacks (now via Twitter) against those who disagree with them to their disregard of the needs of those with recent dead friends or relatives to bury their dead and mourn them locally.

[Blanche Cameron]

Southwark are supposed to have agreed management plans with the community for Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries - like they have with FONC. But they have put it off as they want to go on cutting down the trees to prepare for new burials.

If you like the wild bits of Nunhead Cemetery, that is what the wooded bits of Camberwell Old Cemetery are like and they deserve to be saved too, see the photo.

See you tomorrow at Nunhead Cemetery - come and say hello.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[Blanche Cameron]

We will be at Nunhead Cemetery Open Day today, by the main gate. Come and say hello.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[Blanche Cameron]

Near total support for protecting and preserving the cemeteries as nature reserves.

Over 700 signatures collected at a Nunhead Cemetery Open Day Saturday.

People are against this for so many reasons.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods campaign

07731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[JoeLeg]

That's near total support amongst those who told you they support you.

You'd make a terrible statistician.

ETA: that's also support from those who only heard your version of events, known by others as lies and aggressive denial.