Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[oddlycurious]

Cheers Penguin68 - I'm looking forward to hearing about how the council aren't providing for campanologists next.

[Blanche Cameron]

Penguin68: Do you really believe the Church's own legal department is misleading itself?

The Church of England's Consistory Court? Referring to Faculty Rules about tree felling in its own judgement in a case on municipal cemeteries that took six months to write?

If that's your argument, there's no point discussing this any more.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries

Save Southwark Woods

07731 304 966

[email protected]

www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[nxjen]

If you're referring to their judgment about the Camberwell Cemeteries, it annihilated SSW's arguments.

"If that's your argument, there's no point in discussing this anymore"

You're echoing what many, many people have already said.

ETA I would also suggest that when posting links to documents / articles that you claim give weight to your campaign, you read the document in full rather than just cherry pick the odd sentence or two that appear to support your case.

[rendelharris]

Blanche Cameron Wrote:

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> If that's your argument, there's no point

> discussing this any more.

That's the first time I've seen you actually directly respond to a point that's been put to you - and it's only to say you're not discussing "any more" (sic)! Brilliant.

[Penguin68]

Do you really believe the Church's own legal department is misleading itself?

The Church of England's Consistory Court? Referring to Faculty Rules about tree felling in its own judgement in a case on municipal cemeteries that took six months to write?

Simply - yes. The 2015 Act (I have now read it twice) refers to Churches and Churchyards and makes no mention of consecrated grounds in Municipal Cemeteries. Further it makes no mention of the requirement to grant a Faculty in case of a path or road being built on the consecrated area - which DOES specifically require a Faculty for consecrated grounds in a municipal cemetery. In fact, because it only refers to Churches and Churchyards it makes no mention of consecrated land at all - since there is no necessity to - it all is consecrated as far as this 2105 Act is concerned. Lawyers can make mistakes - if a lawyer was actually involved here he or she certainly did, by referring to an Act of no relevance to the case.

The time taken to write the report has little relevance to any time actually needed to write it, and probably delays were caused by the interference being run by your own group.

It should be noted that the documents cited in the ruling (other than the misleading and incorrect comment made in it about tree management, and the incorrect reference to an Act solely about the management of Parish Lands) all focus on the ways bodies and memorials are to be treated during any development of a cemetery to allow increased burial. There is no mention anywhere of gardening or ecology.

Maybe Renata, who I know has a constituency interest in COC might raise this with Southwark's own legal team, who do appear to have missed a trick here, in not challenging the citation of the 2015 Act. Although, since the court otherwise agreed in (virtually) everything they proposed they may have decided not to bother!

[bsand]

Latest figures ......

50 Hindmans sales history (thanks Property Bee) - you can see started at an asking of 1,100,000 and eventually sold for ?975,000

09/05/2017,

Price changed: ?999,950

16/03/2017,

Status changed: from 'Under offer' to 'Sold STC'

08/02/2017,

Status changed: from 'Available' to 'Under offer'

03/01/2017,

Price changed: ?1,100,000 Offers in Excess of ?999,950

08/11/2016,

Initial entry found.

70 Friern Road ?1,230,000

London, SE22 0AX 17th March 2017

135 Crystal Palace Road ?625,000

London, SE22 9ES 3rd March 2017

50 Hindmans Road ?975,000

London, SE22 9NG 2nd March 2017

1st Floor Flat, 2a Henslowe Road ?579,000

London, SE22 0AP 2nd March 2017

Flat 1, 160 Underhill Road ?530,000

London, SE22 0QH 28th February 2017

Flat E, 51 East Dulwich Road ?466,000

London, SE22 9AP 24th February 2017

12 Archdale Road ?880,000

London, SE22 9HJ 21st February 2017

Flat 4, 41 East Dulwich Road ?425,000

London, SE22 9AN 17th February 2017

16b Henslowe Road ?455,000

London, SE22 0AP 10th February 2017

33 Friern Road ?1,195,000

London, SE22 0AU 27th January 2017

You can search all these sales totally free of charge by going to OurProperty.co.uk.

[Blanche Cameron]

Penguin: I think you had better contact the Church if you think they are misleading themselves.

Here are photos we took in Area K, one of the glades, where Southwark are going to clear the 'scrub' and dig up thousands of graves - not mounding over like in Area Z - but actually removing the remains of people too poor to pay for private graves. It certainly won't look like this once Southwark's done.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods

07731 304 966 / [email protected]

http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[dbboy]

OK go for an injunction against Southwark Council, but as has been explained above very elegantly by posters, their appears to be a difference between how foccssw interpret the documentation and how an "average joe" interprets what it says. So go take some legal advice and try and get an injunction. Will be waiting expectantly to hear the outcome of the attempt.

[Sally Eva]

Look Blanche, put up or shut up. Penguin doesn't have to do anything. it's very good of him to carry on trying to make sense of all this.

If you think a law has been broken or the council has acted irrationally or in defiance of its own policies the proper remedy is judicial review.

I look forward to reading the judgement.

I do not look forward to lots more pictures of trees.

[JoeLeg]

Blanche, you really, really know how to come across as a fool.

I hope you're tactics for challenging Southwark in the courts are better than your tactics for dealing with arguments online. Because you're really bad at that.

Good luck in court. You are going to court...aren't you? Otherwise what do you think you can achieve?

[oddlycurious]

http://www.lawandreligionuk.com/2017/03/17/municipal-cemetry-development/

Seriously: have SSW actually read this? It shoots down pretty much their entire argument and they're using it to back themselves up?

[oddlycurious]

?[52]. ?Ms Cameron either attaches too much intrinsic significance to the trees with which she is concerned or considers the loss of those trees as a matter of greater significance than it apparently has; she also does not seem to give credit for the new planting. It is hard to identify significant environmental harm flowing from the proposals...?

[dbboy]

"Under the Faculty Jurisdiction Rules 2015, a faculty is not required for the felling of a tree where the diameter of any stem of does not exceed 75 millimetres (measured over the bark at height of 1.5m above ground level). By a letter dated 22 December 2015, the Head of Parks and Leisure of the Borough sought advice as to whether it would be possible to clear the scrub from Area Z without a faculty on the basis that any tree that was removed was less than these dimensions. The Chancellor replied on 11 January 2016 referring the Borough to the provisions of the Faculty Jurisdiction Rules. In the light of this guidance, Southwark LBC began works to clear the scrub from Area Z.

Ms Cameron subsequently submitted ?what was, in effect, an application for an injunction, setting out her belief that Southwark LBC were illegally felling trees? [19]. The application was dismissed. Citing In re Welford Road Cemetery [2007] Fam 15 the Chancellor stated:

?If there is no substantive power to order the restoration of works in respect of a cemetery, it is apparent that there can be no power to issue an injunction to prevent any such works in the first place. Against this background, I declined to take any action upon Ms Cameron?s application and, in the event, the scrub was largely cleared from Area Z. I have however no reason to think that this work did require consent by faculty.? [19]."

Based on the above are you sure you want to attempt seeking an injunction or judicial review?

[Blanche Cameron]

Yes we love trees. Thanks for your suggestions. We are looking at all options to stop the Council.

Here is another photo of Area K and all the trees and ?scrub? we love. Southwark is going to clear this area and dig up the dead buried here, not just mound them over as they have done on Woodvale and are doing on Area Z Underhill Road.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods

07731 304 966 / [email protected]

www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[andrewc]

Blanche have you considered going into politics?

[Mark]

Am I right in summarising that these are overgrown cemeteries which are having the overgrown bits cut back so they can be used as cemeteries again?

[mikeb]

Mark - I think you've just successfully summarised 32 pages of waffle...

[Help-Ma-Boab]

Mark...prepare for you to be outed on Twitter. Or at least calls for "Who is Mark" "Can the real Mark stand up".

I AM MARKUTUS

[Blanche Cameron]

Martin that's one angle of the discussion - some on here clearly do think woods and nature should be cut down and thousands of graves mounded over and thousands more dug up to sell ?new? burial plots over their remains.

We feel strongly that the woods, graves, headstones and memorials are of more value and should be respected and preserved as nature reserves like many other full city cemeteries. Here?s a photo of more woods in Camberwell Old Cemetery that Southwark wants to clear for burial plots.

The recent discussion clarified that the Church of England can decide about trees over 75mm diameter on consecrated land in municipal cemeteries. But also that the Church likes digging up graves and selling new burial plots more than it likes trees.

Southwark Council is pursuing inner-city burial at all costs, but has failed amongst many other things to consult families, or carry out a borough burial needs assessment, or stop religious discrimination in its burial service or stop hundreds of people objecting.

So we will continue to fight for the Camberwell Cemeteries and their woods, nature, green spaces, graves and history.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods

O7731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[Blanche Cameron]

Oops sorry I called you Martin, Mark, I'm not good at this thing and sorry I write like a press release. Frankly you should have Lewis back on - he would give you a much better argument. And I already put up the photo I put up so here's one of the glade I haven't posted for a while.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods

O7731 304 966 / [email protected] / www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[JoeLeg]

"Martin that's one angle of the discussion - some on here clearly do think woods and nature should be cut down and thousands of graves mounded over and thousands more dug up to sell ?new? burial plots over their remains."

Now you're putting words in other people's mouths.

Show me one post where someone - anyone - has explicitly encouraged the unrestrained destruction of nature.

It's true, you aren't very good at this. Feel free to send Lewis back in though, maybe he'll threaten to punch me again?

[nxjen]

I can't decide whether Blanche is

A) a troll

B) severely lacking in comprehension skills

C) just plain ignorant of the way local democracy and the law works

D) devoid of any real connection to real life.

Her tactics seem little more than Violet Elizabeth Bott's "I'll scream and I'll scream til I make myself sick"

[oddlycurious]

Blanche, we realise you have your point of view and absolutely nothing is going to change your mind, but to suggest everyone who doesn't agree with you is anti-nature is ridiculous. Your entire campaign is now based on 'We don't like it so therefore it's wrong'. Instead of working with the council, the church and the commission FOCC and SSW decided to ridicule and insult individuals and protest with a goal you cannot achieve without legal recourse.

[Sue]

nxjen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I can't decide whether Blanche is

>

> A) a troll

>

> B) severely lacking in comprehension skills

>

> C) just plain ignorant of the way local democracy

> and the law works

>

> D) devoid of any real connection to real life.

>

> Her tactics seem little more than Violet Elizabeth

> Bott's "I'll scream and I'll scream til I make

> myself sick"

My theory is that they are gathering material for a future "comedy" event or publication by the charming Lewis.

[dbboy]

Perhaps they'll do a sketch of, The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe.

Put in whoever you think best fits each of the parts.