Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[taper]

Nonsense. London is a very green city. 47% is green space, with 8m trees.

And if Lewis is trying to condition how freely people feel able to take part in this conversation , then he is relevant to it. I don't like the feeling of him trying to identify me. His intent is clearly to crowd out dissent on the Forum.

You know him. I suggest you tell him to stop before he leaves the reputation of this campaign deeper in the gutter

[dbboy]

IMO, the conversation is SIMPLY about those that want the cemeteries to cease all burials and revert to becoming overgrown wildernesses and those that want the cemeteries used for their intended purpose, burials of the deceased, overgrown areas are brought back into use for future future burials and the cemeteries are suitably maintained.

[rendelharris]

mynamehere Wrote:

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> I went to dinner in one of the new high buildings

> from which I saw a sea of concrete to the horizon

> 360degrees.

Where were you dining? Whenever I get up high in London, in one of its tall buildings, Crystal Palace Hill etc, I'm always struck by just how verdant it is, especially when compared with, for example, the view of Paris from Sacre Coeur. Taper's figure of London being 47% green space is accurate. I don't know enough about this particular cemetery issue to offer an opinion, but I do know that transparent gross exaggeration isn't really going to help an argument.

[nxjen]

There are some that might say that "transparent gross exaggeration" is what's led to the argument.

[Penguin68]

I went to dinner in one of the new high buildings from which I saw a sea of concrete to the horizon 360degrees.

I'm not sure where your high rise was, but this is Google Earth over SE22 (which is where we are talking about in this thread). There's concrete, sure, but...

[Blanche Cameron]

Life After Death at the Camberwell Cemeteries

Free Tours 11am - 3pm Easter Monday 17th April

Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries

http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/easter-tours/4593788037

Celebrate life after death amongst the beautiful, living woods and old graves of the Camberwell Cemeteries that so inspired William Blake and others.

See the effect of Southwark Council's destruction - mounding over ten of thousands of people buried here - and grim plans to dig up the thousands of private graves, selling them off as 'new' burial plots over their remains.

We will be walking through acres of beautiful native woods that Southwark intends to cut down next - a huge waste of nature and beauty - for the sake of inner city burial plots of all things.

Visit the site on One Tree Hill where the 60-foot Poplar and ten native English Oaks have just been felled in nesting season for the sake of more inner city burial.

Free Tours ? Easter Monday ? 17th April

11am-12pm Camberwell Old Cemetery

Meet: Forest Hill Road Gates London SE22 0RU

2pm-3pm Camberwell New Cemetery

Meet: Brenchley Gardens Gates London SE23 3RD

Reserve your free place:

[email protected]

Visit these living libraries of social history - from the graves of Frederick John Horniman, founder of the Horniman Museum, to two Victoria Cross recipients and the War Memorial in the Old Cemetery, Forest Hill Road. See through the development fences to where 48 WW1 and possibly WW2 soldiers in war graves lie about to be mounded over.

Climb the part of One Tree Hill in Camberwell New Cemetery, Brenchley Gardens, for the best view of London according to Sir John Betjeman.

Wonderful veteran Oaks and Hawthorns, graves and memorials in the woods, glades and meadows, thronging with wildlife including bats, stag beetles, owls, butterflies, dragonflies and more.

Come and celebrate spring this Easter Monday - new life after death amongst the woods and nature, the memorials and history of these beautiful South London havens - before Southwark Council destroys them.

Info and reserve your free place:

http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/easter-tours/4593788037

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[edhistory]

> Celebrate life after death amongst the beautiful, living woods and old graves of the Camberwell Cemeteries that so inspired William Blake and others.

ROTFLMAO

[nxjen]

Yeah, more transparent gross exaggeration.

[JoeLeg]

Lewis is going postal on Twitter again.

It's just pitiful now. Grown man can't deal with being told 'no'.

He evidently wants to harass people - myself included - which given that he has no idea who these people are or how they will respond seems pretty dangerous to me.

[davePAndHam]

When my mum died we looked for natural burial sites and chose here: http://www.clandonwood.com/why-natural-burial/overview/. Southwark are obviously turning a blind eye to alternatives.

[rendelharris]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lewis is going postal on Twitter again.

>

> It's just pitiful now. Grown man can't deal with

> being told 'no'.

> He evidently wants to harass people - myself

> included - which given that he has no idea who

> these people are or how they will respond seems

> pretty dangerous to me.

Totally agree - but what's the bet he construes that as a personal threat?

[JoeLeg]

Well, yes, maybe. Lewis is either a complete wind-up merchant or he seriously wants to take on local residents who disagree with him. His Twitter feed speaks for itself.

So for the record - because we all know Lewis reads this - I'm not threatening him at all, he's not worth my time.

But he should be very careful with what he's doing, and not from the point of view of someone punching him, but more because he could land himself in a fair amount of legal trouble. The law regarding Twitter et al is pretty much being made up as cases go along, and he's skirting around the edges of acceptable online behaviour. I wouldn't be surprised if he got sent solicitors letters if he took this much further.

The bit that I think is hilarious is that he says he wants to know who is fighting SSW. Mate, it's no one on here. People here don't like you and think you and Blanche are liars and full of shit, but we aren't the ones 'fighting you'. That's Southwark Council you're thinking of, who are indeed as nasty a bunch as you could hope not to meet. Wasting time and energy trying to locate local residents so you can harass them in person - which I suspect would result in the police being called - is just that; a waste. No one here is the enemy, and it says a lot about SSW that you can't handle the locals disagreeing with you.

[dbboy]

Found this twitter feed https://twitter.com/HornimanHeights/with_replies

The twitter author is disagreeing with him and he is not a happy bunny.

[rendelharris]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well, yes, maybe. Lewis is either a complete

> wind-up merchant or he seriously wants to take on

> local residents who disagree with him. His Twitter

> feed speaks for itself.

>

> So for the record - because we all know Lewis

> reads this - I'm not threatening him at all, he's

> not worth my time.

> But he should be very careful with what he's

> doing, and not from the point of view of someone

> punching him, but more because he could land

> himself in a fair amount of legal trouble. The law

> regarding Twitter et al is pretty much being made

> up as cases go along, and he's skirting around the

> edges of acceptable online behaviour. I wouldn't

> be surprised if he got sent solicitors letters if

> he took this much further.

>

> The bit that I think is hilarious is that he says

> he wants to know who is fighting SSW. Mate, it's

> no one on here. People here don't like you and

> think you and Blanche are liars and full of shit,

> but we aren't the ones 'fighting you'. That's

> Southwark Council you're thinking of, who are

> indeed as nasty a bunch as you could hope not to

> meet. Wasting time and energy trying to locate

> local residents so you can harass them in person -

> which I suspect would result in the police being

> called - is just that; a waste. No one here is the

> enemy, and it says a lot about SSW that you can't

> handle the locals disagreeing with you.

Spot on - as per previous haven't really looked into the whole issue as it's not really my neighbourhood but it's pretty impossible to believe SSW are in the right when, as you so accurately say, they are quite clearly liars and full of shit. This Lewis character (hello Lewis, as you clearly read all this but don't have to balls to post!) really is putting himself in a legally dubious position and should be very careful about this stalking behaviour.

dbboy, that Horniman Heights thread is hilarious!

[Penguin68]

Dear Lewis (since another poster believes you read this thread).

(1) I don't do social networking - I post on this forum because it's local to me. I thus have no exposure to other e-media sources, save where people post links to e.g. twitter.

(2) Other than being local, and living close to one of the cemeteries I have no other interests in the cemeteries, either through current or past employment (mine or any of my family's) or through any other pecuniary interest.

(3) I dislike lies, obfuscations, errors and distortions of the truth and will expose these where I can.

(4) As I have made clear on a number of occasions, I welcome the continued use of the cemeteries as places to (continue) to bury people. I respect those who put forward alternative cases where these are not based on lies and distortions, but I do not agree with them.

(5) I entirely reserve my right to continue to debate (appropriately, under the rules of the forum) this subject on this forum under my pseudonym, as I have done for a number of years on multiple subjects.

Your attempts to uncover forum identities can serve no purpose other than to use this knowledge to continue attacks and personal vilification which you have attempted in the past - cyber and possibly even real-life bullying - to argue and refute (if you can) my arguments could be done on this forum by your acolytes without needs for names. But then your acolytes tend to make announcements but then not engage in debate (others, who share some of your world view do of course debate and are very welcome to continue).

[dbboy]

He can't post on here as he was previously banned from this forum for similar behaviours to those he is demonstrating on his twit ' r feed.

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

This Lewis character (hello Lewis,

> as you clearly read all this but don't have to

> balls to post!) really is putting himself in a

> legally dubious position and should be very

> careful about this stalking behaviour.

>

> dbboy, that Horniman Heights thread is hilarious!

[Blanche Cameron]

Today

Life After Death at the Camberwell Cemeteries

Tours 11am - 3pm Easter Monday 17th April

Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries

[savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Celebrate life after death amongst the beautiful, living woods and old graves of the Camberwell Cemeteries that so inspired William Blake and others.

See the effect of Southwark Council's destruction - mounding over ten of thousands of people buried here - and grim plans to dig up the thousands of private graves, selling them off as 'new' burial plots over their remains.

We will be walking through acres of beautiful native woods that Southwark intends to cut down next - a huge waste of nature and beauty - for the sake of inner city burial plots of all things.

Visit the site on One Tree Hill where the 60-foot Poplar and ten native English Oaks have just been felled in nesting season for the sake of more inner city burial.

Reserve your free place:

[email protected]

Info and reserve your free place:

[savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[Penguin68]

beautiful native woods that Southwark intends to cut down next

These 'woods' are the result of sapling growth - based on seeds (and suckers) of trees planted locally in the last 150 years, particularly by the cemetery managers. I am sure that many of these are 'native' species but they are not, I believe, exclusively 'native woods' as described. They certainly have Japanese Knotweed (not native). Southwark is clearing part of the sites certainly (not quite 'cutting down woods' as described, but certainly so in some parts, and thinning elsewhere) - it should be remembered that Southwark's plans include replanting - with the threat of climate change not necessarily, I hope, just with native species, but those best placed to cope with possibly changing environment over the next century or more.

I would also argue that the 'beauty' of the area is in the eye of the beholder. Many of the trees are growing far too close together (any even wood management - let alone cemetery management - would be thinning these) - there is little room now for the sort of under-planting that normal wood management (if that's what you want, which I don't) would require to deliver 'beauty'.

[rendelharris]

"Celebrate life after death amongst the beautiful, living woods and old graves of the Camberwell Cemeteries that so inspired William Blake and others."

That certainly is an amazing example of life after death, given that Blake died in 1827 and the first interment in Camberwell Cemeteries took place in 1858. No evidence that Blake ever visited the site, let alone drew inspiration from it. There's only one reference to Camberwell in the works, and hardly a complimentary one: "O lovely Hills of Camberwell, we shall behold you no more in glory and pride, For Jerusalem lies in ruins and the Furnaces of Los are builded there." (Jerusalem). So claiming Camberwell Cemeteries or their site as places which "so inspired William Blake" is more cobblers, I'm afraid.

[Penguin68]

This is a confusion of the story that a young William Blake 'saw angels' on Peckham Rye (a story which is anyway disputed as being a true account of what he said he saw, or indeed if he said he saw anything). In his day the cemetery spaces would have been the open meadows and farm land (not woodland) which were later bought for the cemeteries to be created.

[JoeLeg]

Nice one Lewis, way to totally miss the point. And wilfully misinterpret what was actually written.

Your Twitter feed is enlivened by the nice little echo chamber you and Mike have created, very funny to read!

[rendelharris]

He does love a lie, doesn't he?

[Penguin68]

Actually - although these are 'lies' they are very creative - the whole campaign is about creating an entirely false sense of reality - where the scrub growth in the cemeteries (through wrecked graves) becomes a gentle natural woodland, full of beneficent wild-life and native species, a delight to the eye and the other senses - and where Southwark's work to reclaim actually only a very small percentage of the cemeteries not now fully managed (and to replant) becomes a work of wholesale devastation and destruction.

The fact that most of the 'thousands' of burials to be mounded over or recovered are in fact in unmarked graves is glossed over - you can't see them now and you won't see them then - (and I think that the council far from 'digging-up' private graves will be following the lift and deepen policy so that the bodies will remain buried in the same spots, but deeper, so not really 'dug-up' for more than a few hours - and those only where the last burial in the grave was 75 or more years ago and thus mostly without any mourner who would have known them).

The picture carefully painted seems plausible (if you don't know the truth) and is what has stimulated many to join in to support ssw - they believe what they are told, not what is actually there. That's how propaganda works, and I admire Lewis for his careful scripting of what is, in fact, a false prospectus. His attempts to paint those who oppose him as rogues and crooks (for which, of course, he needs to find our identities) belongs to this same propaganda tradition.

[taper]

Good post Penguin68

I'm probably more inclined towards the management of the graveyard as it stands than you. Had I run this campaign I would have pushed Southwark hard, but constructively, to find a good balance between further use of the Old Cemetery and preserving and enhancing what's there now (particular the wooded area).

SSW's campaign has become entirely tactical and in the process has become unethical and disingenuous.

It has worked to an extent though, as you note. I notice that Councillor Barber seems to have maintained his support for SSW. Southwark Greens. The Friends of DKH Wood too. And even dear old Al Murray seemed close to biting on the WW1 grave stuff.

[nxjen]

taper Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Good post Penguin68

>

...

> It has worked to an extent though, as you note. I

> notice that Councillor Barber seems to have

> maintained his support for SSW. Southwark Greens.

> The Friends of DKH Wood too. And even dear old Al

> Murray seemed close to biting on the WW1 grave

> stuff.

Councillor Barber would support any cause or group that challenges the actions of the Labour Southwark Council. And Southwark Greens really can't do anything else but support them.

Agree it's a good post from Penguin.