Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[JoeLeg]

Look, I can only speak for myself, but I live opposite he cemetery, and when all this started I looked at the plans and read SSW's position on it, and came to the conclusion that if the council is not going to ban all burial within he borough, then they will administer the land as they see fit. Southwark Council are awful, and there's a lot of things to fight them on, and I just don't think this in one of them, particularly when there are still people in the area who desire to be interred locally; as long as the Council is willing to do it (and I'm pretty sure it's only because it's financially viable for them), there isn't a lot to be gained from fighting them.

It's an emotive issue on both sides, but ultimately my view is that if burial is to be permitted within the borough then that's what the land just primarily be used for. You want to fight them on this issue? Get something going on the more basic issue of whether there should be burial within Southwark at all. The arguments over trees and veterans graves are distractions to a more fundamental debate which it sounds to me should be the centre of all this.

Out another way, I don't think the past and current tactics of SSW are ever going to be effective, because they're fighting a decision that's already happened. Far better to try and influence the future.

The actions of Southwark over/around One Tree Hill are a different matter which I'm less convinced about, but I need to look into it more.

[Otta]

fruityloops Wrote:

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> It;s there. Just not as cracking as it used to be.

Same can be said for Soho. That's progress apparently.

My issue is just the bandwagon jumping and less than honest claims being made.

[oddlycurious]

Tin foil hats at the ready

Is [the council] chainsawing One Tree Hill for new burial plots so they can offer foreign bankers a view of Canary Wharf in death?

[JoeLeg]

Yeah, and what Otta said. A concise way of putting it.

[Blanche Cameron]

UPDATE

Area D1, The Glade, Camberwell New Cemetery, One Tree Hill

As of 5:45 Thursday, tree cutters haven't arrived and works have not begun on vehicle access over public (poorer people's) graves or up the side of One Tree Hill

Area B, Old Nursery Site, next to the Allotments and Rec Ground, Camberwell New Cemetery

Planning application for approximately 1000 graves on 3 acres site in Honor Oak Nature Corridor has been made public. We will be making a statement about this shortly.

http://planbuild.southwark.gov.uk:8190/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=_STHWR_DCAPR_9571538

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[HopOne]

Thanks for your comments JoeLeg, much appreciated.

Otta Wrote:

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> These people enjoy their walks. They feel that

> their walks will be less pleasant once work is

> done. That is all that this has ever been about.

> They will clutch at any straw they think might

> help their cause, but they couldn't really give a

> shit about birds or dead soldiers, just their

> walks.

>

> Very selfish bunch.

I really don't know who "these people" are. The issues are surrounding local green space and the best use for it, especially in close proximity to a built up environment. It is as well to point out that wild space, whether managed or not (though I appreciate usually the former) does have a value too.

Most the local cemeteries were drawn up when they were in a more rural space. London has since grown around these areas and they have become part of the urban landscape. So, whatever the original intention, the context has changed. I think that the local councils and population need to adapt their thinking and provide for future generations. At least speaking to the locals in Honor Oak, it would seem that it is Southwark council that have the most catching up to do.

I like a good walk as much as the next man but would still feel the same way if I were not fond of the odd constitution. There are clearly those present who will disagree with this sentiment but I bristle at the idea that this is about being selfish - quite the opposite.

[Sally Eva]

this is a long list of associated documents most of which seem to be risk assessments of various sorts

http://planbuild.southwark.gov.uk/documents/?casereference=17/AP/0671&system=DC

this one is a pdf of the site including tree removals which are the solid red circles with dots in the middle -- in places where the trees are close together they look like fluffy red clouds: file:///C:/Users/Sally/Downloads/The7458.pdf

Am I right to take it that this is the application to remove the nursery site (a lot of it seems to be hard standing)?

[HopOne]

Sally Eva Wrote:

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> Am I right to take it that this is the application

> to remove the nursery site (a lot of it seems to

> be hard standing)?

Yes it is. There is some hard standing there but most of it is not.

[Blanche Cameron]

"Local Burial for Local People"

Southwark cuts down trees on One Tree Hill for "local burial" but will sell plots (with a view) out-of-borough.

Southwark Council claims it is ?running out? of burial space and the tree felling is to provide ?local burial for local people? according to Cllr Ian Wingfield, Southwark Council?s cabinet member for the environment and public realm.

Yet if Southwark is so desperate for ?local burial for local people? why are they selling them to non-borough residents?

Read Statement here: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/selling-burial-out-of-borough/4593740106

ICYMI:

Area B, Old Nursery Site, next to the Allotments and Rec Ground, Camberwell New Cemetery. Planning application for approximately 1000 graves on 3 acres site in Honor Oak Nature Corridor has been made public. We will be making a statement about this shortly.

http://planbuild.southwark.gov.uk:8190/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=_STHWR_DCAPR_9571538

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[Penguin68]

"Local Burial for Local People"

Sorry - you and your crew are clearly on record as wanting NO Burial for ANY People - this is yet another attempt to flim-flam by pursuing any idea which might get traction (like nesting birds, war dead, the graves of the parish poor etc.)

[Otta]

What's a local person? If someone moves in then die the following year are they more deserving than someone that lived there all their life until moving away for the last year or two (but they want to be buried back home in their area)?

It's like school places!

[HopOne]

Otta Wrote:

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> What's a local person?

Great question!

Penguin68 Wrote:

"Sorry - you and your crew are clearly on record as wanting NO Burial for ANY People - this is yet another attempt to flim-flam by pursuing any idea which might get traction (like nesting birds, war dead, the graves of the parish poor etc.)"

Not quite. A lot of people would rather there wasn't yet more burial in the city (feel free to disagree but a valid position) but it seems that Southwark are intent on it anyway. It would seem that the real sham here is that Southwark justify their actions through wanting to provide burial in-borough, however an alternative justification is the revenue stream from this. Given that this is opened out to non-borough residents, it does call into question the original premise of the project, i.e. insufficient space for local burial (whatever that is, round CNC mostly Lewisham residents).

Put another way, if only local provision is catered for, would the small burial provision from the damaging One Tree Hill works even be "necessary"? As this is all so opaque it is hard to know but these are valid questions.

It is also hard to escape the conclusion that the council will not stop until the entire area is grave space. They do not have the law on their side so cannot reuse. When all the woods and playing fields are gone, what will they do then?

[taper]

I live in Lewisham, but about 100m from Camberwell Old Cemetery and quarter of a mile or so from the New Cemetery. So provision to allow people who live nearby, but who aren't Southwark residents would seem sensible.

[oddlycurious]

Have SSW checked the legal situation with refusing burial plots to non-locals? Considering the steep price increases if you're from outside the borough I'm guessing this is the best way to dissuade people from afar being buried in the area...

Also suggesting it was being targeted at dead bankers so their remains could face Canary Wharf was in poor taste.

[Siduhe]

@HopOne - I don't think anyone is suggesting that it is selfish to want to maximize or maintain the area's green space - different people have different views about whether using some of that space for burials is appropriate and (speaking as someone who's in favour of it) there's a genuine and valid debate to be had about that which most people are up for and which a lot of people are trying to engage in (including you and me).

What I think is being referred to as selfish is the doubling down on any kind of sensible debate - wild statements that don't bear up to any scrutiny or being disingenuous about supporting "local burial for local people" when in fact no burial is being supported or saying that war graves are being desecrated or alleging religious discrimination or the really offensive tweets regarding comments that Councillors have supposedly made about Muslims. It's selfish (in my view) because then the debate then becomes about the tactics, not about the underlying issue - is it possible to offer burial space in a way that maintains a good level of green space in the area - if so how? I can't help but think this could have been resolved in a way that takes account of both sides' views by now if we were able to have a more sensible debate about it. Southwark are now incredibly defensive about this and (again, in my view) less willing to listen to people than they were, because of the way this matter has been played out.

[Blanche Cameron]

'LOCAL BURIAL FOR LOCAL PEOPLE'

In 2015 Council Leader Peter John stated: "If we start reusing grave space as other cemeteries are doing, this is potentially a long-term answer to the problem of London running out of grave space." (24th February 2015, BBC London Radio)

Southwark?s ?Super Cemeteries?: Camberwell Cemeteries to become London?s inner city burial ground

20th February 2016 http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/southwarks-super-cemeteries/4591821704

The Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries estimate that there are less than 290 plots available in Southwark or less than 17 months burial provision.

The Glade will provide 122 burial plots and the side of One Tree Hill scarred for generations.

UPDATE

The Glade, Camberwell Old Cemetery (D1): No workers on the site as of 2:45PM.

Underhill Road Wood, Camberwell Old Cemetery (Z): No workers on the site as of 4:00PM.

The Old Nursery Site, Camberwell New Cemetery (B): Planning application available on line.

http://planbuild.southwark.gov.uk:8190/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=_STHWR_DCAPR_9571538

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[Blanche Cameron]

OLD NURSERY SITE (B)

Southwark has applied to build 1,022 burial plots in 3 acres of Honor Oak Nature Corridor land next to Honor Oak Park Station. In the 2016 Consultation, 86% of respondents were against all burial on the site.

The deadline for objecting is Midnight 3rd April 2017.

http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/area-b/4592585837

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[Penguin68]

Honor Oak Nature Corridor

1022 burial plots in somewhere which exists only in the imagination of ssw. Well, nice work if you can get it.

[Blanche Cameron]

STATEMENT:

Southwark Council breaches planning consent by felling on One Tree Hill in bird nesting season - 20th March 2017

Southwark Council has breached the terms of its own planning consent by clearing undergrowth and cutting down trees on One Tree Hill during bird nesting season.

Southwark gave itself consent to fell up to 60 trees and lay roads over graves for 122 burial plots in The Glade in the part of Camberwell New Cemetery. But Southwark?s own planning application promised to carry out works such as ?removal of trees and scrub outside of bird nesting season? (Area D1 Design & Access Statement, para 2.4.7).

?No felling is to take place in bird nesting season? (para 3.2.13).

Read the complete statement: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/southwark-breaches-planning/4593745140

Thank you to Kiera for the invaluable work.

The Council?s wilful destruction of nature in its cemeteries is just another reason why Southwark?s burial service is not fit for purpose.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[mynamehere]

Dead people in dead ground in a rammed metropolis is insane. I have as many ancestors as everyone else and I honor them with nature and joy and life not more death

[JoeLeg]

"

The Council?s wilful destruction of nature in its cemeteries is just another reason why Southwark?s burial service is not fit for purpose."

While this may very well be true, your lies, willingness to use intimidation and insults, denigration of people's religious beliefs and your own personal support of threats of physical violence against others render you unfit for purpose.

I prefer reading Hopone's stuff. Seems to be based on truth and clarity, and is happy to engage and discuss. You're a bully who needs to be called out at every opportunity.

[Blanche Cameron]

UPDATE 11AM Southwark Responds to breaching their own planning consent terms:

Southwark just claimed that ?late? Church approval and demand for burial plots - a non-statutory service - is forcing them to breach the terms of their planning consent and fell trees on One Tree Hill and in Underhill Road Wood in bird nesting season.

Southwark Council?s new statement: ?Unfortunately the timing of the Faculty approval and the fact that they have given us a deadline to implement the project has meant that, although we would prefer not to we must undertake vegetation clearance and see if it is possible to remove trees early on in bird nesting season.?

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/parks-and-open-spaces/improvement-projects/the-future-of-our-cemeteries?chapter=7

But Southwark has breached the terms of their planning consent - ?No felling is to take place in bird nesting season? (para 3.2.13).

It doesn't matter whether an ecologist now okays it or not. It doesn't matter if they have an urgent deadline for burial. It doesn't matter if it is early or late in bird nesting season. It?s one law for Southwark and another for everyone else.

Read our updated statement. http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/southwark-breaches-planning/4593745140

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

[JoeLeg]

And it's one moral standard for you and another for everyone else.

Get a life.

[dbboy]

NO tree felling is actually being done ON One Tree Hill

Underhill Road Wood - Is this in your MAKE BELIEF IMAGINATORY MADE UP WORLD as it does not nor has it ever existed in the real world, if you said over grown scrub, people would not disagree with you. Tell it like it is, not how you imagine it to be. All you do is piss everyone off and turn them against you. You seem unable to run an effective campaign.

Blanche et al at SSW, FFS get real. Once all the cemetery works are done it will be tons better than it is now.

If you are as you say you are the FOCC, where is the constitution and minutes of all meetings held and when will they be made public, who are the elected officers and when was this voted for.

[HopOne]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> Honor Oak Nature Corridor

>

> 1022 burial plots in somewhere which exists only

> in the imagination of ssw. Well, nice work if you

> can get it.

This has been refuted before but the same untrue accusation is trotted out again. They may have named it but am glad they did as it does exist and didn't have a handy name previously. See my answer up-thread:

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,1637832,1787652#msg-1787652

Re ancient woodland. Again, Southwark's and the LNR own documentation do refer to the unique woodland present which includes Wild Service trees. These are indicator species of ancient woodland and this is part of the mix present. Sorry this isn't the sort of black and white answer people seem to like here but the truth rarely is like that.