Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[HopOne]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> Just to clarify Blanche's post

>

> (1) Tree surgeons WILL NOT disturb nesting birds -

> I was talking to one recently who described the

> frustration of rigging up to pollard a tree and

> then coming face to face with an 'early bird' in a

> nest and having to de-rig and wait for autumn.

> There is actually now a narrow window to achieve

> this work before nesting begins - a hold-up for

> which I am sure ssw takes the bow.

>

> (2) 'Smaller trees' would be sapling growth.

>

> (3) - as edhistory notes.

>

> The fact that Southwark is 'moving swiftly'

> reflects the narrow window they have now to

> achieve what they want before nesting actually

> does begin and (I suspect) the end of the budget

> year. The sooner the ground is cleared and made

> ready for burials, the sooner can the replanting

> begin with as much of this 'growing year' left for

> establishing the re-planting.

>

> Oh - and 'environmental crime'? - Come on.

(1) Supposition

(2) Not so. Have seen the smaller trees chopped down - none were saplings or could have been be classed as one in the last few years at least.

(3) I suspect your statement about the budget period is probably true, but again supposition as the council will not reveal the financing around all this. Have you wondered why?

Re environmental crime: if nesting birds or bat roosts are disturbed, whether occupied or not, then this would be literally true. There is little point in complaining about it afterwards. Besides that, the loss of precious woodland on One Tree hill is viewed very dimly by locally residents and this is confirmed by the council's own consultations. Some would see this as criminal and, morally, I agree.

[Blanche Cameron]

Come and witness an environmental crime in your own back garden.

Photo attached was taken in the One Tree Hill Nature Reserve on One Tree Hill yesterday afternoon. The view is across the boundary fence into Camberwell New Cemetery.

Today, 12 noon Wednesday 15th March 2017

Southwark Council are cutting a quarter of an acre of trees in bird nesting season in the buffer zone on One Tree Hill next to the Ancient Woodland Nature Reserve, part of the Great North Wood.

The Glade. The highest point in Camberwell New Cemetery, Brenchley Gardens SE23 3RD (not the Old Cemetery on Forest Hill Road but the NEW Cemetery). Enter the cemetery from the Main Gate and walk up the hill to the right. Or coming from Honor Oak Park Station, enter the cemetery and walk to the left.

Our notice: [www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

or call Lewis 07886 504 221

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

[Penguin68]

HopOne wrote - in reference to my statement that tree surgeons wouldn't disturb nesting birds:-

(1) Supposition

NO - it is the law - The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 https://www.rspb.org.uk/our-work/our-positions-and-campaigns/positions/wildbirdslaw/birdsandlaw/wca/ and I think it most unlikely that Tree Operatives working for the council would knowingly breach this.

[oddlycurious]

If there were birds nesting you can bet your bottom dollar Lewis would have filmed them when he yomped through the undergrowth the other day.

Also, if it's nesting season then surely SSW should protest somewhere they won't be disturbing the wildlife? Why not the council offices?

[HopOne]

They would need to be aware they are doing it. It does not necessarily just apply to the tree they are working on. That you think it unlikely is supposition. I strive only to deal with facts here.

[Sue]

I can assure you that any council would not risk disturbing nesting birds.

I worked at a council where contractors did this, and there was an outcry.

The situation re the cemetery has been made so sensitive that that there is absolutely no way things will not be done to the letter of the law.

[Penguin68]

Dear HopOne

Firstly, disturbing nesting birds (however you disturb them) is contrary to the act. I think that assuming that council operatives will not break the law is better than 'a supposition'. Particularly in a time/ place which is getting a lot of publicity. (Cross posted with Sue - sorry)

Secondly - (an earlier remark of yours) - you may be confusing sapling with seedling. Saplings can be both quite old and relatively substantial. This website may help you http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-tree-sapling.htm .

[HopOne]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> Dear HopOne

>

> Firstly, disturbing nesting birds (however you

> disturb them) is contrary to the act. I think that

> assuming that council operatives will not break

> the law is better than 'a supposition'.

> Particularly in a time/ place which is getting a

> lot of publicity. (Cross posted with Sue - sorry)

>

> Secondly - (an earlier remark of yours) - you may

> be confusing sapling with seedling. Saplings can

> be both quite old and relatively substantial. This

> website may help you

> http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-tree-sapling.htm

> .

Given that the area is audibly alive with birdsong and that the programme of works has started, please excuse a supposition that felling could ensue, given that council operatives have drawn up this plan. There is nothing wrong with drawing attention to these facts as the danger of illegal activity is there - I very much hope you are right though. As I mentioned earlier, there is little point in complaining about it afterwards.

Some of the trees which were felled were well in excess of 10ft tall so according to your definition not saplings.

[Penguin68]

Birds sing throughout the year. They sing less, some species, once they are paired and nesting.

[HopOne]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> Birds sing throughout the year. They sing less,

> some species, once they are paired and nesting.

So? Do they also keep quiet when the others are nesting? The point of saying this is that there are many birds in the area. If they are not nesting they are thinking about it.

[oddlycurious]

Hop One - what would be your timeframe for not carrying out work while birds are thinking about [nesting]?

[kiera]

The official timeframe for not carrying out work is during the bird nesting season - February to August. The Arboricultural Association website states this - "The ?Bird Nesting Season? is officially from February until August (Natural England) and it is recommended that vegetation works (tree or hedge cutting) or site clearance should be done outside of the nesting season." The council put in their planning application that clearance of trees and scrub would not be carried out during the bird nesting season. That is why all the cemetery and environmental groups who are concerned about the cemeteries are up in arms about what the council is doing - the council obviously consider it's o.k.to not abide by the terms of the planning permission they gave themselves.

[dbboy]

For the record Blanche and co used the nesting birds wheeze last year, no doubt they'll be using next year as well. Cry wolf or is that fox!!

Environmental crime is an illegal act which directly harms the environment. (wikipedia definition) If you are going state something, is it to difficult to actually be factual about what is stated

I totally agree with Penguin 68 "The sooner the ground is cleared and made ready for burials, the sooner can the replanting begin with as much of this 'growing year' left for establishing the re-planting."

[Burbage]

kiera Wrote:

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> council put in their planning application that

> clearance of trees and scrub would not be carried

> out during the bird nesting season.

That's very nearly right. But the words in the conservation strategy, based on the arboricultural assessment that was a condition of the planning application (which was subsequently approved etc.), are:

"removal of trees and scrub outside the breeding bird season or following a check for nesting birds"

It's a small word, 'or', but it does mean something. And at this time of the year, when most trees aren't yet in leaf, it's not difficult to see (or hear) a nest. Not that tree-nesting birds do much nesting before the leaves are out, not even those, like the woodpeckers, that hide their nests in holes. And as for the birds that nest in undergrowth, the robins and goldfinches, for example, they tend to leave it even later, until decent cover of new growth has arisen.

But that shouldn't matter. This is about the discriminate removal of innocent trees, deceptively youthful remnants of the Ancient Great North Wood that stood even as the dinosaurs were grazing Peckham Rye and that provided, with the bounteous generosity of nature, food for King Arthur, forage for King Caractacus and firewood for King Akhnaten, in a callous campaign of brutal tidying by an authoritarian, speciesist council, deaf to the waving of democratic placards, blind to the most arrant shoutiness, and disrespectful in the way they're either robbing the environment of the vital food of corporal recycling, or contrarywise, according to faith, temperament and expedience. In that context, the presence or absence of amorous dicky-birds shouldn't really make much difference. It's the trees (and knotweed) we should be thinking of, and they're being sacrificed, as the evil council has no qualms in admitting, merely to:

"minimise the impact on the adjacent wildlife site, and so as to create glades and increase the area of woodland edge habitat which is valuable in particular to foraging bats, birds, reptiles and invertebrates (for example speckled wood butterfly which prefers dappled shade)"

If my blood wasn't boiling already, that would be enough to set it simmering, and I'm minded to rush to the barricades. If only Poundland sold megaphones.

[kiera]

The council's planning application states very clearly that they will not be removing trees or undergrowth during the bird nesting season:-

http://planbuild.southwark.gov.uk/documents/?casereference=15/AP/3190&system=DC

"Camberwell New Cemetery

Area D1? Planning Application Submission?

Design and Appearance and Access Statement???????July 2015? This report forms part of the planning submission for a proposed scheme to prepare an area of land within Camberwell New Cemetery to be more suitable for burial comprising tree felling, localized ground modeling and surface water drainage, laying out of access paths, and associated seeding, turfing, planting and nature conservation measures.

2.4.7 General Mitigation Procedures are given in the report to include:  removal of trees and scrub outside of bird nesting season;

3.2.13 No trees are to be felled until bat surveys have been undertaken by the clients ecologist (below).? No felling is to take place in bird nesting season.

Bats? 3.2.17 The LWT bat survey reveals bat activity over the site and points to ivy clad trees in and around the site as having moderate potential for bat roosts. These are deemed therefore to include trees at the head of the woodland glade which would be proposed to be removed.??? In accordance with the LWT recommendations:?  vegetation clearance works would only be carried out between mid-September and the 1st November or during April to avoid the bat breeding and hibernation"

?? So that is what the council applied for permission to do & for which permission was granted.

?? As April is within the bird nesting season, the only time they should be undertaking clearance work in the woodland glade is mid-September to the end of October.

[Blanche Cameron]

LATEST

The Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries, the Save Southwark Woods campaign, has asked people to write to Southwark Council to ask them to stop tree felling immediately ? it?s bird nesting season. And to stop cutting trees for new burial plots, full stop.

Southwark Council is cutting trees in The Glade, Camberwell New Cemetery woodlands on One Tree Hill, over the fence from One Tree Hill Nature Reserve on the Honor Oak Nature Corridor. Write to Ian Wingfield, Sadiq Khan and others. Details at this link:

http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/stop-felling-in-nesting-season/4593735109

ONE TREE HILL SITE(Area D1)

As of last night, the half acre worksite was inactive. We are awaiting tree cutters today. Go to the highest part of Camberwell New Cemetery (260 feet above sea level)and take photos. We will be there at 11AM. Photo attached is from One Tree Hill Local Nature of workmen in Area D1 on New Cemetery land.

We have asked Mr. Wingield for a site visit inside Area B, but also to Area Z in the Old Cemetery, but he has not replied to us.

UNDERHILL ROAD WOOD, CAMBERWELL OLD CEMETERY (Area Z):

As of yesterday afternoon, the site was quiet. We are awating work to restart, stripping the few remaining bits of nature and start mounding over the graves of 48,000 poor Londoners.

OLD NURSERY SITE, CAMBERWELL NEW CEMETERY (Area B)

Southwark Council's planning application has been received by Southwark Council to turn the football pitch sized green land next to Honor Oak Park train station and also in the Honor Oak Nature Corridor (HONC). What an absolute waste of inner London greenspace.

We shall be at The Glade - or whatever it is now - at 11AM today. If you would like to meet with us and see what the Council has wrought on the beautiful hill, please come.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[edhistory]

Are the graves of our war heroes no longer part of the narrative?

What is the earliest 4ate that plot of land has been called "The Glade"?

[oddlycurious]

Blanche and Lewis - would be nice to see the latest pictures of the group gathered on site to protest; given the numbers you're talking about and the local support you claim I'm sure there must have been hundreds of people showing the council and church what the local community think.

[Blanche Cameron]

FOCC/SSW will be on One Tree Hill at 11AM.

[Abe_froeman]

Don't you think the cemetery is going to be reinvigorated by these works and so will be a wonderful place to be buried once they are complete?

[fruityloops]

Abe_froeman Wrote:

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> Don't you think the cemetery is going to be

> reinvigorated by these works and so will be a

> wonderful place to be buried once they are

> complete?

I preferred them before

[Otta]

These people enjoy their walks. They feel that their walks will be less pleasant once work is done. That is all that this has ever been about. They will clutch at any straw they think might help their cause, but they couldn't really give a shit about birds or dead soldiers, just their walks.

Very selfish bunch.

[fruityloops]

Otta Wrote:

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> These people enjoy their walks. They feel that

> their walks will be less pleasant once work is

> done. That is all that this has ever been about.

> They will clutch at any straw they think might

> help their cause, but they couldn't really give a

> shit about birds or dead soldiers, just their

> walks.

>

> Very selfish bunch.

Think you need to go for a walk, to let off some steam. There used to be a cracking cemetery for that, just off Underhill Road.

[JoeLeg]

fruityloops Wrote:

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>

> Think you need to go for a walk, to let off some

> steam. There used to be a cracking cemetery for

> that, just off Underhill Road.

Oh it's still there, are you having trouble seeing it? Should've gone to Specsavers.

Methinks it might more be yourself that needs a calming walk, suffused as you are with righteous indignation at the idea that Blanche, Lewis and the others should be challenged, or that they might not be entirely correct.

As much as I may have disagreed with him on some stuff, I've found Hopone's posts much more informative and useful. I'm not blind to the idea that Southwark Council are a bunch of bar-stewards who will happily ignore their own regulations if it suits them, but the approach of SSW has consistently been one of abusing (literally) anyone who won't fall into line with their dogma. Add to the fact that they really don't seem realistic or balanced in their view of the future of internment, and I find them very hard to get on board with

Hopone on the other hand seems to deal in facts, and will debate. I like debate, it means I might learn something, and from him I have. SSW don't do debate.

[fruityloops]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> fruityloops Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

>

> >

> > Think you need to go for a walk, to let off

> some

> > steam. There used to be a cracking cemetery

> for

> > that, just off Underhill Road.

>

>

> Oh it's still there, are you having trouble seeing

> it? Should've gone to Specsavers.

>

> Methinks it might more be yourself that needs a

> calming walk, suffused as you are with righteous

> indignation at the idea that Blanche, Lewis and

> the others should be challenged, or that they

> might not be entirely correct.

>

> As much as I may have disagreed with him on some

> stuff, I've found Hopone's posts much more

> informative and useful. I'm not blind to the idea

> that Southwark Council are a bunch of bar-stewards

> who will happily ignore their own regulations if

> it suits them, but the approach of SSW has

> consistently been one of abusing (literally)

> anyone who won't fall into line with their dogma.

> Add to the fact that they really don't seem

> realistic or balanced in their view of the future

> of internment, and I find them very hard to get on

> board with

>

> Hopone on the other hand seems to deal in facts,

> and will debate. I like debate, it means I might

> learn something, and from him I have. SSW don't do

> debate.

It;s there. Just not as cracking as it used to be.