Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[JoeLeg]

I'm really not being a keyboard warrior, I'm trying to ask a question.

The issue being disagreed over is, as far as I can tell, what part of One Tree Hill is a municipal cemetery. I only asked if there's a map, anywhere, that delineates it, because I can't find one.

You choose to be passive aggressive and rude, well that's your choice. I suspect you're the 'keyboard warrior' because I doubt, if I asked you these questions to your face, that you'd have the balls to be so rude, but there you are safe behind your device feeling happy to tell people to study primary school geography.

The answer to my question thus seems to be, no, you have no primary source past your own personal opinion, which you are of course entitled. But the view you have taken isn't first hand evidence of how the local authorities have defined the area.

I was, and still am, genuinely seeking an answer.

[Penguin68]

Like so many things, this is an issue of definition.

Certainly there is a topographical entity which is a hill and which, at the summit, is known as One Tree Hill, and clearly, as a hill, its ?foothills? (as it were) stretch down into valleys surrounding it. However, there is also a nature reserve, also known as One Tree Hill, which has a real meaning ? if you say that you are going ?to One Tree Hill? you don?t mean onto slopes leading up to it, neither do you mean ?to Camberwell New Cemetery? or, ?to the allotments? or, indeed, to Honor Oak Station embankment.

So if you write that something is happening to ?One Tree Hill? it is understood by most people to be a reference to an entity which is meant by the words ?One Tree Hill? and that is the nature reserve that bears that name (whereas if you said that you needed to ?bear left? at One Tree Hill ? a geographical statement - you might more probably just be referring to a topographical hill with that name).

In fact, the report being made is about tree felling in Camberwell New Cemetery ? that portion adjacent to the nature reserve on One Tree Hill. That is accurate and clear, the other report is actually misleading, and probably from ssw (though not necessarily others who support them) intentionally.

[Burbage]

One Tree Hill is, as the name implies, a hill. As a hill, it's host to a variety of land uses, including roads, houses, a church, a school and a bit of the cemetery. The bulk of it, including the summit, is a public park that is also a Local Nature Reserve (LNR). The park, like the cemetery, is managed by the council.

For most people who live locally One Tree Hill refers to the park more than it does to the hill itself or Camberwell New Cemetery (CNC). However, it would be pedantically, if unhelpfully, correct to refer to the part of CNC on rising ground to be on One Tree Hill.

For what it's worth, the Friends of One Tree Hill did express some constructive concerns over the plans for CNC but, unaccountably, don't seem to have made a nuisance of themselves. Perhaps SSW could call themselves Friends of One Tree Hill as well, and thus redress the balance.

[JoeLeg]

Thank you Burbage/Penguin. Even without the aid of a map that's somewhat clearer.

In the absence of a usable map (I accept one may not exist), is it clear that trees were not felled on the LNR? Were they entirely removed from CNC land? Is there a clear delineation between the two?

[HopOne]

Mostly correct Burbage except that most people who refer to One Tree Hill refer to a... hill. They generally do not make a distinction between the nature reserve and other parts as up to now no clear distinction has been relevant. The delineation is there as a fence but you need to trek through woodland to follow it. That may change and yes, up to now, only trees outside of the nature reserve have been felled and in the main that is where they will be felled under the current plans.

Sorry, don't have a map to help visualise this.

[mikeb]

That link to Friends of OTH is a model of erudite and informed commentary. I learnt a lot more from this one response than dozens of rambling posts by Blanche and her gang, whose posts seem scaremongering by comparison

[edhistory]

Alternative-geographies.

Please can someone let me know:

the derivation of the term "The Glade"

the location of "The Glade" (a rough line-drawn boundary on a Google map will suffice.

Thank you.

[mynamehere]

I?ll hazard a guess that the comfortable majority of the people posting here are just against ?SSW?

Of course I have picked these sites as reference to my point of view but in 2017 these sites are the (possibly vast) majority for their subject

obviously I read the EDF and care enough to respond to the tiny group who post on this subject

I really hope and don?t in fact believe you represent the majority of people who live in Southwark or London or in the educated world for that matter

but you very very much represent how decisions are made

on this subject these are my reference points

the historic morality of the church

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/12/us/georgetown-university-slaves-life-campbell.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

https://sputniknews.com/science/201703131051526439-blinking-tech-pedophile-conviction/

air pollution in London

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-slips-down-quality-of-life-rankings-due-to-toxic-air-and-traffic-a3488291.html

The billion pound value of trees

http://forestry.usu.edu/htm/city-and-town/urbancommunity-forestry/what-is-a-tree-worth

The history of cemeteries as landscape in perpetuity

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/4960/Cems.pdf

plant a tree to remember someone

http://www.beatree.com

the kickbacks could be votes or pensions or board memberships or just a dinner council leadership decisions are firmly short term because being reelected is short term not visionary

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/14/yacht-cannes-selling-homes-local-government-officials-mipim

how decisions are made? in a word, decisions are corporate interests

[taper]

edhistory Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Alternative-geographies.

>

> Please can someone let me know:

>

> the derivation of the term "The Glade"

>

> the location of "The Glade" (a rough line-drawn

> boundary on a Google map will suffice.

>

> Thank you.

Well a glade is defined as a clearing in a forest. Or a brand name for something that masks the smell of crap.

So I suppose SSW take inspiration from the latter.

[oddlycurious]

'I?ll hazard a guess that the comfortable majority of the people posting here are just against ?SSW?'

No, the comfortable majority are for facts, responses and a lack of hyperbole rather than against anything

'I really hope and don?t in fact believe you represent the majority of people who live in Southwark or London or in the educated world for that matter'

So people who disagree with you are uneducated? Really? That's your approach?

[oddlycurious]

If we're going to discuss One Tree Hill being a hill or not, should the number of trees on it be an issue too? :)

[Blanche Cameron]

MEETING

Campaign to save the beauty and the heritage of the cemetery meets today at The Herne, East Dulwich at 7:30PM. All are welcome. Trees are being cut now. Graves are being mounded over.

NEW VIDEO

Here is the link to a video shot yesterday about the fencing that is being put up on One Tree Hill.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[taper]

It's like the worst Blair Witch sequel ever. And that's saying something.

[Abe_froeman]

The man in that video says he is not on One Tree Hill? "Remember we're not on one tree hill" at 1'51.

[dbboy]

Have the protest group not realised that a lot of the trees they are supposedly concerned about are being strangled by all the wild ivy and Chair spokes person Shaffer doesn't know, doesn't know what the trees are or which ones are due to be felled. So little organisation or factual information, so much wasted hot air.

[oddlycurious]

Nice of SSW to mock people here on Twitter while not having the courtesy to answer questions

[Sue]

dbboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Have the protest group not realised that a lot of

> the trees they are supposedly concerned about are

> being strangled by all the wild ivy

Ivy doesn't strangle trees, I don't think.

The only damage it can cause to trees is if it prevents light getting to the leaves.

Plenty to criticise this misguided (to say the least) group about without ivy :)

[Otta]

The thread that just keeps giving.

[dbboy]

edit

[Burbage]

Sue Wrote:

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> Ivy doesn't strangle trees, I don't think.

>

> The only damage it can cause to trees is if it

> prevents light getting to the leaves.

Sort-of. Usually, in proper woodland, the ivy and tree will more-or-less happily co-exist. If the ivy invades the canopy, and starts outcompeting the tree for light, it's usually because the tree is on its way out, anyway. The problem with ivy isn't so much it will damage the tree - or make it more susceptible to wind damage - but that it makes the tree difficult to monitor effectively, and so rotten or diseased trunks and branches (which naturally fall from even healthy trees from time to time) mightn't be spotted before they fall down. In publicly-accessible woodlands, at least near paths, ivy is routinely cleared for that reason, among others.

Most urban woodland (and much of that elsewhere) isn't 'proper' woodland, in that it's too young or small or disturbed to have a stable or sustainable balance of light, soil structure and undergrowth. Which means brambles and ivy tend to dominate, providing nice homes for rats and crowding out more interesting plants and reducing biodiversity. Regular clearances of ivy, and brambles, are thus a necessary evil in managed woodland. The only alternative is to leave them alone (and undisturbed, even by environmentally-conscious humans) for a couple of centuries, but that's a less popular option.

[Sue]

Ah yes, I see all that.

[Blanche Cameron]

Come and witness an environmental crime in your own back garden.

Today, 12 noon Wednesday 15th March 2017

Southwark Council are cutting a quarter of an acre of trees in bird nesting season in the buffer zone on One Tree Hill next to the Ancient Woodland Nature Reserve, part of the Great North Wood.

They've cleared the smaller trees. Fences are up. The Council are moving fast.

The Glade. The highest point in Camberwell New Cemetery, Brenchley Gardens SE23 3RD (not the Old Cemetery on Forest Hill Road but the NEW Cemetery). Enter the cemetery from the Main Gate and walk up the hill to the right. Or coming from Honor Oak Park Station, enter the cemetery and walk to the left. Closest train station (10 minutes) is Honor Oak Park.

Our notice: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/witness-enviromental-crime/4593733289

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[edhistory]

> the buffer zone on One Tree Hill next to the Ancient Woodland Nature Reserve, part of the Great North Wood.

This is untrue as HopOne can confirm.

[Penguin68]

Just to clarify Blanche's post

(1) Tree surgeons WILL NOT disturb nesting birds - I was talking to one recently who described the frustration of rigging up to pollard a tree and then coming face to face with an 'early bird' in a nest and having to de-rig and wait for autumn. There is actually now a narrow window to achieve this work before nesting begins - a hold-up for which I am sure ssw takes the bow.

(2) 'Smaller trees' would be sapling growth.

(3) - as edhistory notes.

The fact that Southwark is 'moving swiftly' reflects the narrow window they have now to achieve what they want before nesting actually does begin and (I suspect) the end of the budget year. The sooner the ground is cleared and made ready for burials, the sooner can the replanting begin with as much of this 'growing year' left for establishing the re-planting.

Oh - and 'environmental crime'? - Come on.

[oddlycurious]

Come and witness an environmental crime in your own back garden

NIMBY in action; this is it in a nutshell. Blanche and co. don't care about anyone else - not different religions, not war graves - as long as 'their' overgrown cemetery isn't back in use with all those awful people driving hearses and being sad near their homes.