Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[nxjen]

As the Southwark Council Cemeteries Strategy specifically includes provision for Muslim burial, any claims that Southwark are showing discriminatory behaviour, direct or indirect, are without foundation. You believe what you want to believe without any facts to back it up but most people like to have reliable facts before they make a decision. If as you say you don't have time to engage with the forum, why don't you just stop posting?

[JoeLeg]

Hey Blanche!

I'd like to congratulate you on a fantastically evasive answer; well done! Have you considered going into local politics, because I think you've got what it takes to avoid answering direct questions and be really insulting while trying to accuse people of holding opinions that they plainly don't hold in an effort to discredit them.

Seriously, that last post from you is a masterclass in passive-aggressive shiftiness. You should be proud! I asked you a straight question and you've just completely ignored it; how clever of you! That'll show us, eh? Let me repeat it though - have you taken legal advice which leads to your position that Southwark council is acting illegally, or is this your own personal conjecture?

I can see that Lewis must get along really well with you. What a pair of nasty little Nimby's you are...

[HopOne]

Sally Eva Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blanche Cameron wrote:

> "The playing fields, allotments, wooded hillsides

> and Honor Oak Nature corridor land are too

> valuable as they are to be used for burial."

>

> Has anyone suggested that they should? The playing

> fields and allotments are in Lewisham.

This is incorrect. The playing fields, allotments and wooded hillsides are in Honor Oak but also in Southwark. With the exception of the allotments, which has a special arrangement, they are mostly used by Lewisham residents.

Southwark council have before tried to turn the playing fields into burial space. There was a huge outcry about this (quite right too, this is Honor Oak Park and is there for community use) and they backed down, though only temporarily I might add.

>

> I would personally be strongly against turning

> Peckham Rye Park into a burial ground. SSW should

> think big. There are no end of places which are

> too valuable to be used for burial.

Isn't this the nub of the issue? If we were talking about Peckham Rye Park for burial then there would be strong local opposition from Southwark residents that would also be hard for the council to ignore. But you are right, we all need to think bigger than this.

In my view we should stop burying people in inner London. The green space is too valuable for the living. The strategy that Southwark have is unsustainable in the long term and will cause long term damage to the ecosystem. Air quality will suffer.

[Penguin68]

For the ease of understanding...

1. ssw is generally against any burial in Southwark, but is prepared to 'accept' (they would have no option other than doing so) the take-up of existing burial rights in old graves. However any new graves anywhere in the borough are anathema to them.

2. ssw does not want any work to be done by the council in managing the existing graveyards which would involve any changes to anything now growing, or which in the future might grow.

3. They wish the existing graveyard to be 'recreation areas' - as if they were not already (as managed) fine areas to walk etc.

4. All discussion of discrimination by ssw is an entire red herring - they do not wish burials of any people of any denomination - so arguing about classes of people who might to be able to be buried (when they want that to be the universal set) is irrelevant.

err... that's it.

[JoeLeg]

Allow me to add one more point:

5. SSW is run by some very unpleasant people who have no problem belittling those who disagree with them in extreme terms and engaging in aggressive and threatening behaviour - to be clear here I'm talking about face to face, not just online. In one sense that's admirable (they at least aren't pure keyboard warriors), but it also makes it impossible to engage with them in debate.

A visit to one of their regular echo chambers at the Herne is, I'm told, "Kafka-esque in its ability to twist facts through their own M?bius-like logic." They represent the worst of what this area has become.

[edhistory]

> Southwark council have before tried to turn the playing fields into burial space. There was a huge outcry about this (quite right too, this is Honor Oak Park and is there for community use) and they backed down, though only temporarily I might add.

Camberwell Council acquired land for future burials.

This land is temporarily used for playing games.

[Blanche Cameron]

The small "Muslim Area" in Nunhead Cemetery doesn't meet the requirements of most of the borough's residents who require Islamic funeral rites. We are waiting for the Council's explanation on how providing 7 Muslim burials in the borough compared with 420 non-Muslim burials doesn't represent a discriminatory policy.

SOUTH LONDON PRESS

Attached is a jpeg of "Graves Concern" - Full article in Friday's South London Press by Toby Porter

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[Penguin68]

A simple question for you Blanche, does your group want any Moslem, ever, to be buried in any Southwark cemetery? Because you are on record that you don't want anyone else buried here.

[dbboy]

All these people crave and want is publicity so they can continue to push their repulsive campaign in an attempt to try and stop the cemeteries being used for the purpose they were intended, the BURIAL of those who have passed away irrespective of the deceased religious believes.

They twist the facts to suit themselves, quote discrimination and then tell the local press stories which the press publish without checking the facts and doing the relevant research. If they did they would never publish this rubbish.

[JoeLeg]

So the answer, Blanche, is no, you can't answer a straight question.

You really are a piece of work.

[oddlycurious]

The time it takes SSW to copy and paste their latest press release could be spent answering the one Yes or No question that interested people want answering...

Do SSW support burial for all in Southwark?

Unfortunately Blanche seems happier slapping herself on the back for misleading the local press

[Blanche Cameron]

One must ask these questions, as well

Do you support the digging up of local peoples' graves to provide burial plots for local people on top of the remains of local people?

Do you support the mounding over of local people's graves to create local burial plots for local people?

Do support destroying the memorials and heritage of local families to create local burial plots for local people?

Do you support Southwark treating the poor and working class dead of Southwark buried in public graves worse than the rich dead in private graves to create local burial plots for local people.

Do you support cutting down trees and undergrowth and scarring the historic and beautiful One Tree Hill - a hill which people fought to save from development over 100 years ago - to create local burial plots for local people?

Do you support spending millions of pounds to subsidise local burial plots for local people - when other local people are facing cutbacks in local services - when there are cheaper, fairer alternatives?

Do you support creating a greater flood risk for local people to local create burial plots for local people?

Do you support creating subsidised local burial plots for local people when as many as half of all local people who ask for burial cannot bury locally and must go outside the borough at greater cost?

Do you support discriminating against Muslims, Jews and others who have needs that are not being met by Southwark's plans to create local burial plots for local people, in possible violation of the law, to create local burial for local people?

Do you support selling local burial plots to those from outside the borough without ties to the borough which were created to provide local burial plots for local people?

Do you support digging up heavily-used sports fields and allotments to create local burial plots for local people?

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[dbboy]

You seem to spend a lot of time posting on here but do not answer the questions others ask of you, like Do you support burial for all in Southwark?

[Sue]

I think the answers to your questions can probably be found on one of the previous seventeen pages of this thread, Blanche Cameron.

[oddlycurious]

It's a yes or no question you're avoiding and frankly your whole campaign comes down around your ears because you refuse to answer it in clear terms:

Do SSW support burial for all in Southwark?

If it's no then you're stirring up religious tensions at a time when hate crime is on the rise, and that is a dreadful.

[Penguin68]

As Blanche has posed a set of questions - I am very happy to answer them, although my answer of course does not reflect a pressure group:-

Do you support the digging up of local peoples' graves to provide burial plots for local people on top of the remains of local people? Yes

Do you support the mounding over of local people's graves to create local burial plots for local people? Yes

Do support destroying the memorials and heritage of local families to create local burial plots for local people? The requirement is for the records contained in the markers to be preserved (where these can still be read)- I would prefer the headstones to be ranged around the border of the cemetery, but recognise that this cannot always be done. For private markers where the process is lift and deepen it is common to reverse these so that the 'lower' interment now appears on the back of the marker. I would also support this practice

Do you support Southwark treating the poor and working class dead of Southwark buried in public graves worse than the rich dead in private graves to create local burial plots for local people. They don't. The legal practices regarding the two classes of internment are different, the Church previously requiring either mounding or disinterment and reburial elsewhere. Other graves follow the lift and deepen practice. All graves where the last burial was 75 years or more ago are liable for re-use. It happens that the public graves (amongst others) are some of the oldest in the cemetery and thus least likely to have extant families wishing to visit them.

Do you support cutting down trees and undergrowth and scarring the historic and beautiful One Tree Hill - a hill which people fought to save from development over 100 years ago - to create local burial plots for local people? I do support the removal of scrub growth - most of One Tree Hill is not part of either cemetery and will not be touched by this work - the question is thus (mainly) irrelevant

Do you support spending millions of pounds to subsidise local burial plots for local people - when other local people are facing cutbacks in local services - when there are cheaper, fairer alternatives? I have yet to see any detailed whole life cost whole life revenues analysis of this work. It should be remembered that much work is the effect of recovery from 15-20 years of neglect. I have seen no costing whatsoever for any alternative use of the cemeteries

Do you support creating a greater flood risk for local people to local create burial plots for local people? there is some evidence of run-off associated with heavy rain in this area - there is no other flood risk. Proper land drainage can only be installed by disturbing existing parts of the graveyard anyway. There is no evidence that planned works, when completed, will in any way worsen the run-off issues following heaving rain

Do you support creating subsidised local burial plots for local people when as many as half of all local people who ask for burial cannot bury locally and must go outside the borough at greater cost? Yes, in so far as this is true

Do you support discriminating against Muslims, Jews and others who have needs that are not being met by Southwark's plans to create local burial plots for local people, in possible violation of the law, to create local burial for local people? Sorry, there is no evidence that there is such discrimination. Some religious groups will only allow exclusive - and hence discriminatory - burial practices - I am glad Southwark isn't pandering to these at the expense of others. No one is turned away from the cemeteries on the grounds of race or religion - although they may turn themselves away.

Do you support selling local burial plots to those from outside the borough without ties to the borough which were created to provide local burial plots for local people? Yes

Do you support digging up heavily-used sports fields and allotments to create local burial plots for local people? Again an obfuscation - the areas which will be returned to the primary use (burial) over time were acquired for that use and allowed to be used for other recreational purposes until they were needed. That is a good use of resource and should be applauded.

AND NOW, Blanche - perhaps you could answer:- Do you support the new burial of Moslems and Jews in Southwark cemeteries?

[JoeLeg]

Blanche, I was considering send this by PM but decided to post it publically as its something I'd happily say to your face.

You have been asked direct questions by myself and Penguin68. You have chosen not to answer them. Instead you have put up a long series of further questions that are so leading, biased and openly designed to force others to either agree with you or be portrayed as bigots ("do you support discrimination?" - pitiful, Blanche, pitiful!).

I live opposite the cemetary. When I told Lewis that I supported some aspects of the council a plan he turned the air blue with his expletive-laden rant at me. You supported him then and seem to be engaged in the same kind of puerile behaviour now. Your questions are a masterclass in strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks.

So I ask, again, will you answer the direct questions put to you by Penguin68 and myself?

[nxjen]

Someone's trialling a bot under the username Blanche Cameron

[oddlycurious]

Also the repeated use of 'local people' in those questions make the League Of Gentlemen look subtle.

[HopOne]

edhistory Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> > Southwark council have before tried to turn the

> playing fields into burial space. There was a huge

> outcry about this (quite right too, this is Honor

> Oak Park and is there for community use) and they

> backed down, though only temporarily I might add.

>

>

> Camberwell Council acquired land for future

> burials.

>

> This land is temporarily used for playing games.

Oh, here we go again. To quote again from this very site:

"Hi, just to mention, it's funny the way Southwark Council always mentions 1901, but never the papers from 1956. In 1956 the surrounding area was pretty much as it is today. The huge Honor Oak Estate, housing 5,000 people, had been completed in 1937.

The local Borough Council at the time (not the same as Southwark Council which didn't exist then) announced that it was going to take some land, out of a 30 acre site it owned below One Tree Hill, to use as Camberwell New Cemetery, but they had done this without getting planning permission from London County Council. The Borough Councils was then required to put their proposals for the whole site to the LCC and these were also commented on by the Minister for Local Government. This is London County Council's Town Planning Ctte report from 16th Jan 1956:

"The Locality -- The locality is a residential one and the existing public open space standard is about 2.5 acres per thousand population. A considerable additional area, would, of course, be necessary in order to achieve a standard of four acres per thousand and the Borough Council's present proposals for playing fields may be welcome as contributing to recreational facilities in the vicinity." 19.19 acres were designated for tennis courts and playing fields, plus "2.41 acres for a public open space adjacent to Honor Oak Park as well as being joined to One Tree Hill, in accordance with the Minister's suggestions" and "3.16 acres for Temporary Allotment Gardens...pending eventual redevelopment as public open space". The amount of space allowed for the cemetery was just 2.87 acres.

The para headed "The Locality" also states: One Tree Hill affords extensive views across London and much of the New Cemetery land, which lies on the slopes of the hill, is in turn visible from nearby points, including particularly Blythe Hill Fields and Hilly Fields. It is a matter of considerable concern that the landscaping of the area should not be adversely affected by a more extensive area of white stone memorials reaching up to One Tree Hill and St Augustine's Church".

Modern London Government never intended this area to be taken out of public recreational use."

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,645329,645338

[edhistory]

So, I'm right.

[Blanche Cameron]

MEETING

Meeting today of the Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries /Save Southwark Woods Campaign.

730PM at The Herne, 2 Forest Hill Rd, London SE22 0RR across from Peckham Rye Park.

We will be discussing what actions we are taking regarding the pending planning applications for the destruction of three acres of Honor Oak Nature Corridor land for just 3 or 4 years of burial plots.

We will be discussing what actions we will take regarding the continuing destruction of the Underhill Road woods and graves of local people.

And what we will be doing to stop the cutting down of up to 60 trees on One Tree Hill for fewer than 145 burial plots with lovely views of London - to be made available for purchase by people from outside Southwark.

Further actions: To alert potential new plot purchasers in the cemeteries that new burial plots are currently on top of the graves of deceased local residents, and that shortly the newly buried will be sharing the graves of deceased local residents.

Families Meeting: 18th March gathering of local people concerned about their loved one's graves being mounded over and dug up for new burials.

OTHER

For those who missed it: South London Press article (attached) Uproar of local people concerned over Church of England's support of mounding over local people's graves and of digging up local people's graves.

FOCC/SSW are for the stopping - except for those deceased with current burial rights - all burial in inner city London - including Southwark. And for the graves of local residents to be protected and the nature, used by local residents, to be protected.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[Penguin68]

We are for the stopping - except for those deceased with current burial rights - all burial in inner city London - including Southwark. And for the graves of local residents to be protected and the nature, used by local residents, to be protected.

That answers it - ssw is against any new burials (in new plots) of Moslem and Jewish people in Southwark.

I note they put forward no suggestion as to how (and at what cost, paid by whom) the second element is to be achieved. Obviously not through revenues from burial.

[HopOne]

edhistory Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So, I'm right.

You are right in that Camberwell Council purchased the area for burial in 1901. Apart from that you are about 50 years out of date, times change. The Rec has a strong established community use, by design.

[oddlycurious]

Hello Blanche - nice that you found the time to pop in and post your meeting details. Unfortunately I'm watching TV tonight but could you answer a question - it's yes or no, so will take you less than five seconds to answer.

Do SSW support burial for all in Southwark?

As discussed by everyone else, if it's no then you're stirring up religious tensions when hate crime is on the rise...