Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[fruityloops]

I live close by, seeing the fence from my property, and agree that the iron railings are a vast improvement on the wooden panels there before.

Doesn't make up for the devastation across the remainder of the area.

[HopOne]

Totally agreed fruityloops.

dbboy, that really is a rather typical divisive response from you. I used to think that it was the burial anti-tree mob that made this forum an unpleasant place to visit but I have come to realise that some who frequent here prefer the sport of goading to engaging with issues or, shock horror, actual debate. Shame in my view as there is much else that is positive.

[nxjen]

HopOne Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Totally agreed fruityloops.

>

> dbboy, that really is a rather typical divisive

> response from you. I used to think that it was the

> burial anti-tree mob that made this forum an

> unpleasant place to visit but I have come to

> realise that some who frequent here prefer the

> sport of goading to engaging with issues or, shock

> horror, actual debate. Shame in my view as there

> is much else that is positive.

This is perhaps the pot calling the kettle black, not you Hopone, but a couple of posters representing SSW (I'm sure you know who I mean) constantly posted emotive posts and made dubious claims and then refused to engage in any public debate when these statements were queried or evidence of their claims sought. That would be my definition of goading.

It is also provocative, and goading, to refer to an "anti tree mob". It is not a question of being "anti tree", I doubt if anybody is, more a question of having different priorities and a desire to see the cemeteries continue to be used for the purpose they were intended.

[dbboy]

hopone - not at all, how am I causing disagreement or hostility between people? Its an opinion and I had NO intention to cause any offence to anyone. I said tree anti burial, NOT anti tree mob. To be honest I feel you're reply is heavy handed and un-warrented.

[HopOne]

nxjen,

This is precisely what I am referring to. The signal to noise ratio has been very poor because many have focused on individuals making statements rather then the bigger picture. I applaud penguin68 for starting this thread but the same pedantic accusations surface again and again and drown out any attempt at reasoned debate. My point is that I have realised that this seems to part of the culture on the site and diminishes its community value IMHO. It is a mob mentality that a few display and spoil it for everyone else.

dbboy,

I said "burial anti-tree", you said "tree anti-burial". It was perhaps a poor attempt at parody. Am not suggesting that anyone actually thinks along those lines, so how is that sort of language helpful? I was merely pointing out that you had made similar comments before and I see them as being divisive. Don't worry, you have good company and am happy to accept that you mean no harm by it. It is all about the culture on a site.

The net effect, in my view, is that there was a well intentioned attempt at steering some intelligent discourse on this thread about issues that are important to a lot of people. It has largely failed to deliver and I believe that this is a shame. The posters, and I include myself in this, have a collective responsibility for that.

[dbboy]

hopone - Use of language is hugely important, it is the basis of written communication. When I wrote what I did, I did so as I did not want to offend anyone, clearly I was wrong and I apologise to you again.

However parody is "an imitation of the style of a particular writer, artist, or genre with deliberate exaggeration for comic effect" so you were having a laugh at my expense.

[HopOne]

dbboy, I meant no offence and my attempt at parody was to make a light comparison between your post and mine. That you had the reaction you did will hopefully mean that you realise the effect runs both ways so why comment like that in the first place? Hope you see the wider point which is about debate not the nature of parody.

[Blanche Cameron]

Latest news on Southwark Council's desecration of the graves of the poor. Where have the headstones gone?

15th April 2016

www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/where-have-the-headstones-gone

Today, Save Southwark Woods asked Labour-run Southwark Council to stop desecrating the graves of the poor and demanded to know where their headstones have gone?

New photos from the 150 year-old Camberwell Old Cemetery in East Dulwich show Labour-run Southwark Council?s contempt for the poor - even in death.

Memorials have been removed from vast areas, for the land over the dead to be flogged off as ?new? burial grounds.

In the last two months alone, two acres have been cleared of hundreds of trees and the memorials of the dead. Many more acres are to come.

Save Southwark Woods has written to Southwark Council asking to be told where the memorials have gone and what is to happen to them?

Families are disgusted and appalled at the planned destruction of loved ones? graves and say they have not been consulted:

?Southwark?s whole project is horrific,? said John Repsch, ?My grandmother is buried in a common grave in Camberwell New Cemetery. What is to happen to her? Southwark Councillors are acting like grave robbers. This is theft - of my grandmother?s grave, of our family history, of the respect and dignity I want my grandmother to have in death.?

This is a test case for the UK. All British cemeteries could be at risk of the same destruction if Southwark Council is allowed to continue to bulldoze over the wishes of thousands of residents and families.

?Southwark Labour harps on about being for working class people - while taking away their homes and their graves,? said Blanche Cameron of Save Southwark Woods.

?Southwark is desecrating and bulldozing the heritage of the poor and our nature and history for profit - and against a huge public outcry. Peter John must stop his mass destruction of the beautiful and historic Camberwell Cemeteries now - while there are still woods and graves to save.?

Save Southwark Woods? letter to Peter John at Southwark Council is below.

Dear Peter John,

Re: Desecration of graves, removal of memorials at Camberwell Old Cemetery - requests for information and site visit

I am writing on behalf of Save Southwark Woods to ask for information and a site visit at the earliest opportunity.

1. Where have the memorials removed from Camberwell Old Cemetery have gone (see photos attached)?

2. What is your justification for this desecration of the graves of the poor?

3. What is to happen to them? Are they to be discarded? Or crushed as part of your mass grave ?reuse? project?

4. Why has Southwark Council not consulted with families and residents about your mass grave ?reuse? project?

5. In 2012 you adopted a strategy for the mass reuse of graves and have been implementing it ever since, starting with the mounding over of tens of thousands of graves on Woodvale, Camberwell Old Cemetery in 2013? Your website states: ?The council?s cemetery strategy prioritises the re-use and reclamation of public and private graves (the law states that graves older than 75 years could be re-used for burial).?

Why then did Southwark Council state to the Evening Standard this week ?we are not committed to reuse? and ?we will only proceed with reuse after consultation and legal guidance?? http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/campaigners-outraged-with-plans-to-excavate-and-reuse-thousands-of-old-southwark-graves-a3221391.html

6. When can we view what is now a mass grave ?reuse? development site, Area Z at Camberwell Old Cemetery, with independent expert witnesses?

I am copying this request for information and site visit to Chancellor Philip Petchey and Registrar Paul Morris at the Diocese of Southwark, and to Southwark Council?s Freedom of Information Requests department.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely,

Blanche Cameron

Blanche Cameron

Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966

[email protected]

www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

@southwarkwoods

Facebook Save Southwark Woods

Save Southwark Woods was founded in January 2015 to stop the destruction of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries, with woods for the living and respect for the dead and their memorials.

The Camberwell Cemeteries story: Evening Standard 10th April 2016

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/campaigners-outraged-with-plans-to-excavate-and-reuse-thousands-of-old-southwark-graves-a3221391.html

Save the Heritage and Beauty of Britain's Cemeteries

Trees - Our Cities? Lungs: a child?s story

http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/8-yr-old-eco-warriors-story/4592026982

Sign the petition to save Southwark Woods

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/save-southwark-woods

[edhistory]

Does anyone have photos of progress to share?

[Penguin68]

Apart from the new boundary railings on Underhill - very visible and a very good improvement - most of the area that is being worked on is still surrounded by high black metal fencing - so is not visible. However a great deal of the wilded area is still untouched (I walked through it yesterday) - some is fenced off for Knotweed treatment, but is still very overgrown. The hill on the Underhill road side has been broadly cleared, with some trees left, but the details of the clearing are still not visible. There has been some shrub re-planting along Underhill. A lot of the putative 'woods' remain untouched. Nothing much to photograph, unless anyone has a photo-drone and can fly it over the metal fenced-off portion? There are plans posted to stabilise a number of existing graves. The new entrance on Underhill had been cut through but the gates I assume being planned have yet to be installed, and it is not clear that there is any roadway yet which joins up with anything. It's all still very much work-in-progress.

Amended to add that the cemetery management team have again this year kept patches of the cemetery-in-use area un-mown to create a meadow environment - though this is coming to the end of its natural life and I assume will be mown sometime in August. The planting (a couple of years ago) of e.g. dogwood along the Langton Rise boundary is looking established although it may well now need some attention. Some of that planting however has not worked, I imagine, as intended. At the moment (and not surprisingly, given the weather) the cemetery has no waterlogging.

[edhistory]

Thank you for the update.

It seems that things are progressing well.

John K

[JoeLeg]

I note with interest that Blanche and Lewis have made the pages of Private Eye! 'Scene and Heard', p.22.

Congratulations!

(Shame Lewis is still such a rude and aggressive individual and Blanche is still an apologist for his vicious behaviour towards those who disagree with him).

[Blanche Cameron]

Here is Private Eye's take on what is going on in the Camberwell Cemeteries - David Ziggy Greene?s Scene and Heard from August 2016.

http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/private-eye-exposes-scandal/4592785767

We are still waiting to hear if the Diocese of Southwark, Church of England, has given Southwark permission to cut down dozens of trees in The Glade on One Tree Hill in the New Cemetery (Brenchley Gardens and to continue cutting trees and mounding over graves in Camberwell Old Cemetery (Woodvale).

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries - Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966

[email protected]

www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

@southwarkwoods

Facebook Save Southwark Woods

[Penguin68]

We are still waiting to hear if the Diocese of Southwark, Church of England, has given Southwark permission to cut down dozens of trees in The Glade on One Tree Hill in the New Cemetery (Brenchley Gardens and to continue cutting trees and mounding over graves in Camberwell Old Cemetery (Woodvale).

You will be waiting an exceedingly long time then - the 'statute' you continue to cite refers only to activities on church (parish) lands - municipal cemeteries are not covered by this, (see many notes passim). The Church must give permission for alteration to graves or their contents, and the addition of new paths or roadways in consecrated land in municipal cemeteries - they have NO authority regarding the felling (or indeed planting) of trees in municipal cemeteries, although they do claim such rights as regards parish land (church cemeteries). The rights as regards new paths reflect the fact that these would thus reduce the amount of land in consecrated areas.

The church is on clear record as being happy to encourage and support re-use of consecrated ground for future burials.

[mynamehere]

Part of the cemeteries under discussion here are consecrated. What Blanche and FOCC are discussing is consecrated ground. Your point is completely understood Penguin68.

[nxjen]

I understand the Diocese do not consider it within their jurisdiction as to whether trees are cut down or not. At the pre-hearing, they made it clear that if FOCC/SWW brought up the subject of tree felling at the full hearing they would be liable for Southwark Council's costs for wasting time.

[edhistory]

> Blanche Cameron

> Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries

Is this a new organisation?

[kiera]

A small group of local residents had formed themselves into a Friends group and were talking with the council, which annoyed Save Southwark Woods, so SSW tried to take them over by creating their own Friends Group with the same name. The pre-existing Friends group responded by carrying on as they were but changing their name to Camberwell Cemeteries Working Group. CCWG have a website and Facebook page http://ccwgroup.weebly.com

[Sue]

kiera Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A small group of local residents had formed

> themselves into a Friends group and were talking

> with the council, which annoyed Save Southwark

> Woods, so SSW tried to take them over by creating

> their own Friends Group with the same name.

That is absolutely ridiculous but no more than I have come to expect, given SSW's modus operandi in the past.

[nxjen]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> That is absolutely ridiculous but no more than I

> have come to expect, given SSW's modus operandi

> in the past.

The kindest way to describe their behaviour is extraordinary and naive, they certainly don't have a clue how to gain support and influence people.

Thanks Keira for explaining, I'm sure your calmer and less antagonistic approach will achieve more.

[Blanche Cameron]

Old Nursery Site Decision:

Thursday Councillor Ian Wingfield (Cabinet Member for Environment and the Public Realm, Labour - Brunswick Park) announced Southwark will seek to use the Old Nursery site, Honor Oak Park, for conventional burial plots with headstones.

Southwark will be applying in January for planning permission for Option 2 - which is rows of mown burial plots. 76% of residents surveyed in June/July of 2016 were against using this part of the Honor Oak Nature Corridor for burial plots.

Latest News:

http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/funeral-companies-are-the-boss/4593403146

Against burial plots on the site:

http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/survey-says-woods-not-burial/4593068903

Final Meeting of the Year:

Tuesday, December 20th at 7pm will be the last meeting of 2016 of Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries and the Save Southwark Woods Campaign. Meet a the Herne Tavern, 2 Forest Hill Road SE22 0RR. All welcome, hope to see you there.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries - Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966

[email protected]

http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

@southwarkwoods

Facebook Save Southwark Woods

[Sue]

Would you like to comment on Kiera's post above?

[Abe_froeman]

Not likely!

[mynamehere]

To everyone drawn to this thread: we all die so what happens then deserves a public debate in the modern light of air pollution climate change in perpetuity grave reuse alternative burial public open space wilderness and the human condition habitat loss

I hope I do not have to list eninfinitum

If you choose to trivialise this conversation like Donald Trump at this exact moment in time you have the power

But might does not make you right

And economically there's the same money to be made for funerals in woodlands and meadows and ashes. Pomp and ceremony and fetting is what people want end game a place to visit can be a woodland.

Every time you breath you you inhale the entirety of what came before there's nothing sacred about a rectangle of dead ground for 40 years and what happens after is as long as endless string

So everyone off your high moral horses. This is a polluted overpopulated world. I will be someone's ancestor and I'd prefer not to be cursed

This is the same as breaking the unions and zero hour contracts

No one at all is winning with the council's plan this is pure power and the land is public open space so I have the right to an opinion and like the overwhelming majority of residents I want new ideas and fresh air thinking

[edhistory]

> Tuesday, December 20th at 7pm will be the last meeting of 2016 of Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries

Are the agendas and minutes of earlier 2016 meetings available?