Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[Sue]

HopOne Wrote:

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> "Selective answering" - that is a bit rich, please

> can we call time on this.

I find myself

> constantly answering the same questions yet never

> seem to get a response, just the same questions

> again.

Which questions are you not getting a response to?

I've lost track of the questions I've asked and not had a response to. I think they mainly relate to asking for evidence to be provided in relation to various statements made, which is possibly why no response has been forthcoming.

When I get a spare moment I will go back through the thread and make a note of them all. Maybe you could do the same. Then we could both post them all up again in one place.

[HopOne]

Which is my point Sue. I do not think it is reasonable to castigate anyone for not responding to a particular point in a post amongst hundreds and conclude from this that anyone is being evasive.

[Sue]

HopOne Wrote:

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> Which is my point Sue. I do not think it is

> reasonable to castigate anyone for not responding

> to a particular point in a post amongst hundreds

> and conclude from this that anyone is being

> evasive.

Which is why I suggest gathering unanswered questions together and posting them again.

[dbboy]

dbboy Wrote:

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> Selective answering - an interesting approach,

> when the arguments the protesters put forward are

> exposed their is little to be able to defend.

It was ME who brought up the issue of selective answering, Not Sue, and HopOne it was not aimed at you.

I raised it as the protest groups current spokesperson who posted an update the other day continues to be selective about answering questions I have raised with her posts. And from what I can see they have huge gaps and voids in their argument. They continue to spin the facts to suit themselves, even though others have explained to them were what they are saying is incorrect They don't listen to reason and it seems nigh on impossible to have a coherent discussion with them.

As I think JoeLeg might have said, Panada Boy did a far better job at creating a constructive discussion on here.

This won't be popular as the sooner Southwark complete the clearance work the better, then this thread can die a dignified death and Southwark won't have to start digging up more of the rec for burial space.

[HopOne]

dbboy, rather than making such accusations, which only diminish the usefulness of this thread IMO, why not be specific? If you have a reasonable question to ask then go ahead.

[dbboy]

I am not making accusations (I do not know how you think I am), but am rather stating things that happened.

I do not wish to argue with you about this, and think it's probably better that I cease contributing to this thread.

[Sue]

dbboy Wrote:

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> I am not making accusations (I do not know how you

> think I am), but am rather stating things that

> happened.

> I do not wish to argue with you about this, and

> think it's probably better that I cease

> contributing to this thread.

Please don't stop contributing, dbboy, I for one value your contributions.

It's important that information which is wrong for whatever reason is questioned.

ETA: And that applies whether it's wrong information given by people who broadly support the existing plans of the council, or wrong information given by people who do not support those plans.

I think it's very important (and not just on this thread, but in general) that statements put forward as fact have supporting evidence which can be provided if requested, and where appropriate (for example statistics) their source.

[geneie]

I decided a while ago not to post any more on here, as to me the cemetery is a cemetery for local, ie Southwark people. We have woods and parks nearby.

But I have been catching up, and while it's a bit late in this thread, I have to ask Blanche Cameron, who I think was first to come up with a term I have never heard before - "Orthodox Muslims"...what or who are they?!

[Sue]

http://www.wikihow.com/Become-an-Orthodox-Muslim

[dbboy]

WARNING

I suggest anyone who has any indirect contact with Lewis Schaffer is extremely careful. The creep has started trolling me, as he has with others who object to the views of the protest group he is involved with.

I thought trolling was illegal in the UK? Does anyone know what the consequences are for being a troll if you are not a UK citizen but residing in the UK?

[edhistory]

edhistory Wrote:

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> Blanche Cameron Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Dear all,

> > I'm grateful to the administrator of the east

> > Dulwich Forum for registering me on here. I am

> > part of the Save Southwark Woods campaign team

> > that has been working to protect and preserve

> the

> > woods and graves of the Camberwell Cemeteries

> for

> > the future.

>

> Do you disown "Lewis Schaffer" and all his false

> statements?

>

> John K

Well, do you?

John K

[dbboy]

Lewis Schaffer is now tweeting posts from here on his twitter page, what a creep.

[edhistory]

Just in case I don't get an answer again.

On the SWS home page he is listed as a "Leader from Public" life.

Just above Zac Goldsmith.

John K

[Sue]

dbboy Wrote:

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> WARNING

>

> I suggest anyone who has any indirect contact with

> Lewis Schaffer is extremely careful. The creep has

> started trolling me, as he has with others who

> object to the views of the protest group he is

> involved with.

>

> I thought trolling was illegal in the UK? Does

> anyone know what the consequences are for being a

> troll if you are not a UK citizen but residing in

> the UK?

He has been harassing me constantly on Twitter since 11 February.

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,1646181,1646198#msg-1646198

I would like to know whether Blanche Cameron and others associated with SSW are in agreement with this person's modus operandi, given that he is apparently an "important" person in their campaign.

[nxjen]

This may be a tactic to ensure this thread doesn?t die, with the gaffe by Blanche regarding Muslim percentages and dbboy stating he would not be posting any more, it is likely to do so, and perhaps it wouldn?t be a bad thing. Though the thread is critical of and questions the protester group, for some there?s no such thing as bad publicity. He sure takes a lot of interest in what he?s dismissed as a ?small town forum?. If you think of the thread that got lounged, whenever the posts stopped, edborders would post something outrageous and bring it to life again. Classic troll behaviour.

It?s also possibly a tactic to divert attention away from Blanche?s massive mathematical mistake. Shall I paste Loz?s post here to remind us? No that would be too cruel.

Like ddboy I had decided not to post on the thread any more, ssw seem to be doing an excellent job of discrediting themselves, and I am happy to leave the matter to the Diocese and Southwark Council who are much better informed and more articulate than I am. My fear is that because of the swingeing cuts the council face, the works will be scaled down and/or delayed though this will not be as the result of any protest action.

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[edhistory]

SSW would benefit from knowing that there are 4840 square yards in an acre.

https://thejohnfleming.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/blanchecameron_lewisschaffer.jpg

John K

[taper]

There are plenty of us who have nothing to do with SSW who are very uneasy about what is happening in COC. It is easy to point out the folly of SSW's arguments. But leaving it up to Southwark risks giving them free reign to damage elements of the cemetery that should be preserved and managed.

This thread was set up to take the discussion away from SSW.

[JoeLeg]

taper Wrote:

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> There are plenty of us who have nothing to do with

> SSW who are very uneasy about what is happening in

> COC. It is easy to point out the folly of SSW's

> arguments. But leaving it up to Southwark risks

> giving them free reign to damage elements of the

> cemetery that should be preserved and managed.

>

> This thread was set up to take the discussion away

> from SSW.

SSW are a local pressure group involved in what's happening in COC; they should be free to come on here and debate the issues. I support their right to do that. However, one individual in that group in using their own Twitter account to troll this debate, and is therefore the one pulling it away from its purpose.

I think it's interesting that Lewis only ever mentions by name individuals off this forum. For someone supposedly in opposition to action by the local COUNCIL, he focuses on attacking local residents a lot; could this be because if he starts naming council members they might sue? I suspect so.

I'm in the undecided camp where COC is concerned; I want to hear more arguments on both sides, and I wish Panda Boy would come back, but I also loath bully's, and right now SSW just look like bully's. For all of Blanche Cameron's professed desire to have a sensible and mature debate, their campaign is being undermined by the actions of Lewis Schaffer, as many posts on here show.

SSW have a message and a right to be heard, but not to troll people.

[Penguin68]

For me the most pressing issue for COC (the cemetery I know best) is not the re-use (that seems a sensible use of a resource) or the removal of the scrub growth to allow those areas to be re-used (that seems necessary, as does the removal of the fly tipped rubbish) but (1) that the public burial area memorials which are still (broadly) viable - that is not too badly damaged by root growth and toppling - should be preserved, not, obviously, in situ but (I suppose ideally) ranged round the cemetery perimeters - this is quite a common practice and that (2) the replanting intentions (type and justification for choosing those types) be part of an open discussion. Thirdly, I suppose, considering the issues have been raised, I would like to see the drainage plans for the revisited areas made public, and particularly a review of the use of field drains (porous clay pipes to allow area drainage etc.).

[edhistory]

I would like to repeat my request for a plan (or tabulation) of the cemetery blocks that are said to have been consecrated in 1913.

The cemetery blocks as laid out seem to be rectangular, except on the perimeter.

This seems to be in conflict with the "overlay" lines.

Where, exactly is this consecrated area?

John K

[taper]

Lewis's behaviour towards Sue and the Goose is Out is appalling. I've met him, and liked him. But he should stop and apologise. The issue at hand here is clearly finely balanced between the various views. Mine are based on living near the cemetery and enjoying and appreciating the beauty of the wooded area and the old graves. Equally, the power of the case for being buried near to where you live is a strong one. I'd quite like to be buried there when I snuff it. But I wouldn't want that to be at the expense of the older wooded area.

The compromise is clearly there to be had. But the loudest voices unfortunately, and as is often so, are at either end of the spectrum. Southwark should consult more on the detail.

[nxjen]

..

[Loz]

edhistory Wrote:

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> I would like to repeat my request for a plan (or tabulation) of the cemetery blocks that are said

> to have been consecrated in 1913.

The plans I have seen are in the strategy document on page 21, which show the consecrated areas and the year they were consecrated. The blocks in the middle (105, 106, 107) are unconsecrated.

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/downloads/download/3046/cemetery_strategies

[Blanche Cameron]

Dear all,

Sorry, I'm ill at the moment with one of the colds that is going around.

This has been a learning experience for us. We didn't realize some people wouldn't think the wild places amongst graves were worth saving. We thought that would be enough to stop the Council.

We have been offering a whole range of reasons why their plans are so bad. These include:

Increased flood risk, reduced air quality, reduced wild natural space and ecological value, religious discrimination, possible ground water contamination, insufficient public engagement or consultation, the financial cost of the project and lack of financial transparency, no cost benefit analysis with alternatives, no environmental impact assessment,

There has been far too little engagement or consultation either with families with existing relatives buried at the cemeteries who might not want their relatives dug up or mounded over (as we are finding), or with residents who would choose to be buried there if it was an option but who may not want their loved ones buried in crushed building waste over other families' remains, to be dug up again in 75 years time.

A video made by Lewis Schaffer this week shows what the Council is doing right now, and what they plan on doing.

As said before, I'm not on here all the time so if anyone wants to discuss the campaign's proposals or any aspects of Southwark's plans, please do call or email me - although I have lost my voice at the moment, so best by email at the moment: [email protected]

Cheers,

Blanche Cameron

Save Southwark Woods

07731 304 966

[email protected]

www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk