'Al Queda' man on bus on NY eve on Bishopsgate !?

[vinceayre]

It would seem that I am wrong then, I shall have to reconsider my opinion.

"Destitute Plus" A very sad phrase, as if destitute wasn't quite bad enough.

[Santerme]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Had a couple of beers on way home from town on NY

> eve, on the bus down from Shoreditch there was an

> African guy sat behind me who (afer someone walked

> passed him and inadvertently barged him) kept

> shouting "Al Queda !" (sp.) while clutching his

> holdall during his verbal exchange with the other

> gentleman. The implication clearly being that he

> would 'detonate' if the other guy didn't shut up.

>

> After a few mins of this I was getting a bit

> p!ssed off with his free use of this term and

> given it's implications and his ferocity of

> delivery I told him to STFU. People sat nearby

> weren't sure whether to be scared of him or humour

> him.

> It was a challenge he did not expect and he calmed

> down a bit.

>

> He muttered something about having been in Detroit

> over the Xmas period and various other flavours of

> BS followed.

>

> When we got to London Bridge I pulled him off the

> bus and let him go when the doors closed and the

> bus had moved away.

> I told him to think before he utters this stuff

> because he could get in to serious trouble. I

> took this guy as just being a fool who had bad

> taste when venting his frustrations and left him

> stood there.

>

> Thinking about it, if he'd pulled this act in,

> say, Washington, he could well have found himself

> receiving a sound thrashing or worse. If you can

> get imprisoned in the US for joking about bombs

> when you're having your baggage checked at the

> airport then presumably he could have been in big

> trouble !!

>

> I wonder what he would he would have experienced

> here in UK if I had called the police ?

Sounds like your African chap had been on the vino too....

Should have let the police have a go, a cavity search would have been a given!

Would probably have ruined the rest of his day, deservedly!

[Huguenot]

Alternatively....

Maybe the guy was a bit daft, had been living on 30 quid a week for eight months. His wife and children had been raped and murdered in front of him. He'd bought a prawn sandwich with his last one pound thirty and had it slapped to the ground by a heavy arsed egotist from Nunhead as he tried to get on the bus.

Maybe the 'barge' wasn't inadvertent. Maybe some retard kept staring at him muttering 'immigrant' under his breath and tried to curry favour with fellow passengers by pointing his finger and saying "you shoodint be here".

Maybe KK is right, but maybe he'd had so much grief the preceding 3 months, that the only way he gets rid of people is to say "Al Qaeda".

Maybe this guy's life is a fecking tragedy.

All he needs now is some white prick to haul him out of the bus and lecture him on social mores.

[Huguenot]

Alternatively....

Maybe the guy was a bit daft, had been living on 30 quid a week for eight months. His wife and children had been raped and murdered in front of him. He'd bought a prawn sandwich with his last one pound thirty and had it slapped to the ground by a heavy arsed egotist from Nunhead as he tried to get on the bus.

Maybe the 'barge' wasn't inadvertent. Maybe some retard kept staring at him muttering 'immigrant' under his breath and tried to curry favour with fellow passengers by pointing his finger and saying "you shoodint be here".

Maybe KK is right, but maybe he'd had so much grief the preceding 3 months, that the only way he gets rid of people is to say "Al Qaeda".

Maybe he had post traumatic stress. Maybe he had Tourettes.

Maybe this guy's life is a fecking tragedy.

All he needs now is some white prick whose biggest tragedy was the kebab house being shut to haul him out of the bus and lecture him on social mores.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no liberal, and my ability to fight in pubs is the subject of popular myth.

[vinceayre]

Yes of course you are totally and utterly correct.....as all ways

[Huguenot]

Sorry Vince, it's just my manner. I'm very nice really.

I was just reading the thread and visualising the encounter, and wondered whether this guy wasn't really a monster at all. Maybe he was a little crazy, very sad, and a very long way from home.

The rest of my post was just rhetorical flourish. ;-) Playing to the gallery etc.

What's the gag about never judging a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. Because then you're a mile away, and you have his shoes.

[KidKruger]

Yikes !!

It looks like I've been branded a white prick. Thanks for that !

And also for the assumptions that I was drunk and hungry, slight leftfield, but I guess the forum's anonymity can be used to hurl whatever insults you please, good luck !

A slight digression from the original question, and one less welcome (for me) than the other interesting points made.

Huguenot - You can paint the guy as a victim, there's always a way to do that obviously, but fact is he scared the hell out of a bus load of passengers. Drunk or not, feeling theatened or not, chip on his shoulder or not, hard done by or not.

The guy who tried to blow up the plane into Detroit may also have had 'his reasons' which we can speculate on all day long.

Are you saying the man on the bus's behaviour is acceptable ? That we should consider all connotations of his possible background into consideration before reacting ? Or that no reaction at all should occur just in case he's had a hard time somewhere in his experiences ?

If he'd been fiddling with a kid on the bus would you still be painting the potential picture of his hardships as part of your 'encounter visualisation' and 'rhetorical flourish' ??

[Huguenot]

Sorry KK, didn't want to paint you as anything, no intention to hurl insults.

Just saying there's two sides to every story.

There's plenty of people in the world who will make mountains out of molehills, and the fact that you're now prepared to speculate that he's a paedophile does suggest that you're willing to embellish a story to suit yourself.

The fact is this bus traveller wasn't a bomber and wasn't a paedophile. We have your word that he was annoying, but that is rather subjective. You told us that he was shoulder barged, and you left me with the distinct impression that you'd physically assaulted him to get him off the bus.

He must have been scared silly. Terrified even.

All this bloke seemed to to do was muttering in a way that suggests he was mentally ill.

Are you absolutely sure that you didn't overreact here, and end up punishing him for other people's crimes?

[????]

er.....putting words people haven't said into their mouths again H? or do you just really not read what people post as your minds made up? Or do you just think it's all a laugh?

Your post distorts, misrepresents and attempts to belittle under a thin guise of 'joshing' politeness...plus ca change

[mockney piers]

Back on topic I have to say that on reading the OP my first thought was he was probably mentally ill.

Thus KKs stress and this chap's distress are a failure of duty of care, making everyone the vicim of cyncal cuts in spending the main issue here.

Asylum seekers, benefits, all red herrings if you ask me, not that anyone is mind.

[KidKruger]

Huguenot - I don't know where you get off, but I'm not interested in silly point-scoring on a board that's supposed to be for moderately serious exchanges. Your post(s) appear to need to antagonise and be contrary, to evoke some reaction for your own amusement, rather than discuss in a friendly way.

I posted about something I experienced, other people were there, they were scared, he didn't get hurt, I did what felt right at the time.

Even if you have doubts I'm certain you can do better than be rude.

I didn't speculate the chap was a paedophile, you know that, I was simply interested in how consistent your application of 'mitigating factors' really is when behaviours arise that are perhaps more emotive.

It's quite interesting that my portrayal of events is being re-written by yourself actually, isn't that some kind of plagiarism ?? If so, surely I'm due a little commission by now !!!

Yes there are two (or more !) side to every story and yes some people very well may make mountains of molehills but does that mean you need to all but accuse someone of lying just because it's 'possible' that people can be untruthful ?!?

Good luck my friend.

[KidKruger]

Mockney - agreed the asylum seeker angle etc etc is all fluff.

[vinceayre]

I thought I was the white prick !

Totally confused now. I was quite getting used to it as well.

[KidKruger]

Vince - no it's me so hands off !!

Though I must admit I always assumed the term was used for males only.

[Keef]

  Quote

a failure of duty of care, making everyone the vicim of cyncal cuts in spending

Can't tell if you're jesting here or not... You seem to be suggesting that a mentally ill person should not be allowed out in public... ? :-S

[mockney piers]

I think you know me better than that. I'm sayin that 'care in the community' as it was originally temred was a cynical costcutting measure that was originally justified by the idea that the standard of care would remain high, but in reality often means that vulnerable people have to fend themselves, can end up on the streets or just have much reduced levels of care.

Any of the above would mean our chap may not be monitored for his medication at the least, at the worst he may now be alcoholic, on drugs or on the receiving end of mental abuse even violence; again any could be responsible for his state of distress.

I expect some peple to twist words but I'm surprised at you keef.

Of course all

supposition, hey may jus have been a complete arsehole!

[Huguenot]

He may indeed.

And whilst I may have appeared light hearted, I was perhaps putting a little bit of weight on the other side of the seesaw.

[Keef]

Wasn't trying to twist words Mockney, hence the "not sure if you're jesting", I obviously just misread your point.

[mockney piers]

I know. You're not a word twisting type of guy keef.

I realise I hadn't been very explicit in my point, I just thought that a curious conclusion to leap to is all.

If this wasn't the drawing room I'd ask for a manly hug, but as it is let's just fill some pipes wth quality shag and smoke them in comfortable Chesterfield.

[Keef]

For the record, mental health services in most areas are stretched beyond belief. I am still a huge advocate of "care" in the community though, just so long as it is actually there.

[vinceayre]

rough shag on the chesterfield it is then.

[northlondoner]

KK - you did absoluetly the right thing. In fact you're to be congratulated on your restraint. Hugs - chill the feck out. Shouting AQ on a london bus will always attract a hostile reaction - whether or not you are mentally disturbed. If he had tried it in Peckham he might have got an even more robust response.

[Huguenot]

Chuckle ;-)

"Whether or not you are mentally disturbed"

I also manhandle people in wheelchairs out of shops for getting in the way, preferably leaving them face down in the gutter. Best cure for acne? Slap 'em.

Thank the lords we have the good burghers of Peckham to show us the moral high ground.

Aside from such effective measures against insanity, my advice would be oberve that there, but for the grace of God, go us all.

As for facts mate, go read 'em. Accurately summarised as 'loony gets bustled, has a case of tourettes, and gets assaulted by fellow passenger'.

At no point did KK suggest that anyone receive any physical attack from the nutjob. In fact his description of the guy clutching his bag sounds more like Manuel from Fawlty Towers cringing in front of Basil than a freedom fighter.

Conersely KK was very proud to announce that he had assaulted the mentalist, and even deprived him of his journey after a series of assumptions.

Them's the facts. ;-) The rest is speculation.

[KidKruger]

Huguenot

I was not drunk, I drink shandy so had had a total of one pint of lager. I believe the guy had been drinking though I have no reason to believe that he was drunk enough to shout the comments he did because of alcohol. I don't think he was mentally ill, just angry.

I don't think the police, had they been standing at the bus stop as I alighted with the AQ pretender, would have been inclined to arrest me for assault (though you may presume that implies the police would be neglecting their duty !).

The people on the bus who had moved seats and appeared as scared as I was, seemed relieved as he left the bus, one of them stood in the doorway so AQ pretender could not get back on, personally I did not feel safe that I would not be blown to bits until I had got on my train at London Bridge.

Your comments really are quite fantastic and it's a genuine education for me to witness how twisted and contorted information can become given the motive. Good luck my friend.

[Huguenot]

Sure thing, I never suggested you were drunk.

Amended summarised as 'loony gets bustled, becomes shouty, and gets assaulted by fellow passenger who wasn't drunk with onlookers in tacit approval'.

Nothing twisted or contorted there. Just the facts.

Sounds a bit like a lynch mob though doesn't it?

KK I'm not trying to wind you up here, and I appreciate you may feel that way. I'm just trying to say that there are many ways of interpreting a situation, not all of which are best addressed by coming over all Lancelot.

Do you remember the newspaper ad on telly a few decades ago, and it shows a nazi tattooed skinhead assaulting a city boy outside a shop? It was at the height of the yob culture.

The same ad ran two months later, same footage different perspective, and it shows a workman dropping a load from an upper storey window, and the city boy was actually tackled to take him out of harm's way.

It was just prejudice.

Maybe, just maybe, the guy was ill. Maybe he'd had a terrible experience and was scared of the moon.

The reality is that you don't know. You honestly haven't got a clue. You just heard shouty boy and did one.

Fine.