'Al Queda' man on bus on NY eve on Bishopsgate !?

[KidKruger]

Had a couple of beers on way home from town on NY eve, on the bus down from Shoreditch there was an African guy sat behind me who (afer someone walked passed him and inadvertently barged him) kept shouting "Al Queda !" (sp.) while clutching his holdall during his verbal exchange with the other gentleman. The implication clearly being that he would 'detonate' if the other guy didn't shut up.

After a few mins of this I was getting a bit p!ssed off with his free use of this term and given it's implications and his ferocity of delivery I told him to STFU. People sat nearby weren't sure whether to be scared of him or humour him.

It was a challenge he did not expect and he calmed down a bit.

He muttered something about having been in Detroit over the Xmas period and various other flavours of BS followed.

When we got to London Bridge I pulled him off the bus and let him go when the doors closed and the bus had moved away.

I told him to think before he utters this stuff because he could get in to serious trouble. I took this guy as just being a fool who had bad taste when venting his frustrations and left him stood there.

Thinking about it, if he'd pulled this act in, say, Washington, he could well have found himself receiving a sound thrashing or worse. If you can get imprisoned in the US for joking about bombs when you're having your baggage checked at the airport then presumably he could have been in big trouble !!

I wonder what he would he would have experienced here in UK if I had called the police ?

[vinceayre]

You would have been arrested for provoking a fight.

He would have been given counselling more benefits and a bigger house.

[KidKruger]

I have to say the first couple of times he shouted 'Al Qaeda' put the sh!ts right up me.

[mockney piers]

Do you actually believe these things vince, I mean really? Fr be it from me to call you a tedious troll, I'm just wondering if you think that's what would have happened other than the far more likely scenario of kk being thanked half-heartedly with a roll of the eyes that hinted how much paperwork would be involved to actually do anything and the chap I question being told to calm down and behave himself and that would have been the end if it.

[huncamunca]

well done KK - the bloke was Obv off his nut - If he was AQ, then I doubt he would be rambling like this- you could have called the filth, but they would have just overreacted & gone to town on him with guns and tear gas & that would have no benefit

I personally would have got my mate Soap to rappel into the bus and silently kill him with a boot knife, before escaping over the rooftops of Borough market to the awaiting helicopter*

*must stop playing COD Modern warfare all day

[KidKruger]

Vince - I am not sure whether the guy had a job or not or needed social services / welfare support - my question was more around what (from a security perspective) the police would have done had they got involved !

Mockney - I would find it alarming if the police were more concerned with paperwork than making an example of the perpetrator of such a scare !! Yu may well be correct though.

Hunca - When someone pretends to be a terrorist in order to scare people I am not sure that a response as if the person actually WAS a terrorist would be wholly incorrect, I mean it's not like the De Menezes case where he was minding his own business is it !

The whole event was scary and has caused me to think a lot about my travel arrangements and my 'rights' to feel safe / other people's obligations to not make other passengers suffer fear, whether through just generally being obnoxious and threatening violence or pretending to be about to blow the whole bus up.

[Keef]

You acted well in the circumstances, and it sounds like he was basically a mentalist.

I remember hearing an interview with a man that had gotten off the bus that was blown up on 7/7. He said the young man with a big backpack was frantically mummbling in another language (praying I imagine), so he legged it off the bus, and sure enough, it exploded just after. That I think, was the first report that suggested suicide bombings were to blame.

I think I'm right in saying that they remove all of their hair, so that would be a bit of a clue too. A policeman friend of mine told me they were told to look out for this, Charles de Mendez had a full head of hair though, so it obviously didn't help him.

Vince, what a stupid post.

[????]

I don't think Vince believes it he just exagerates to make the points that...

....many of the recent terrorists convictions and deportations have been of recent immigrants to the UK, some of whom were on benefits (thought it was NHS doctors who tried to blow up TigerTiger) and that in recent high profile crime cases do seem to suggest that victims get a worse deal than pepreatrators....all very 'Daily Mail' as that is, it contains some truths.

Edited to change almost all to many

[vinceayre]

Mockney and Keef

Why don't you check out how many alleged terrorists/fanatics in this country are on benefits, as whenever i see article about these people we are trying to get rid of but cant they all ways seem to be benefit claimers with huge families and legal aid, how many we are trying to deport but cant because we are not committed to ridding the country of undesirables.

I actually don't read the Mail as it is just a gossip rag dressed up as news, FT all the way as its the only paper that doesn't spin.

Still not quite sure what a troll is, they live under bridges don't they? I cant see what that has got to do with inflammatory posting, whether its a stupid post is debatable but there is an issue with this country's lack of ability to deport and our well-fair service being used by people who have never contributed to this country and have no good will towards it.

[Keef]

Why don't you check out how many alleged terrorists/fanatics in this country are on benefits

Is there a register of fanatics and terrorists that I can cross reference to, or are you just making figures up to support the argument that you've made up?

I agree that there are issues that this country as a whole, and this government are scared to address, for fear of being labelled as racist. However, I just don't see why your point needed to be made on thios thread.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Couldn't we say as much about Irish terrorists in the 70s and 80s?

Oh, we did. Fat lot of good it did then either

let's say for a FACT they all are? Now what? You think it's possible or desirable to kick all non-nationals on benefit out of the country? What about indigenous white people who have never contributed anything to society?

Even if you do want that and even if you succeed, do you think a) the UK is more likely to be the subject of a terrorist attack or b) less likely as a result?

Instead of going for gut-reactions can people actually engage brains before wailing

[????]

I don't want to nor do I think it's practicsl

but the value free answer is b).....

[????]

of course the 'stable door' answer is that we should have been far more stringent in our immigration policy since the early 90s onwards when we were warned about importing islamic radicalism ....but know how well that will go down.. I can see the l******* mob running for their pitchforks as I type

[SeanMacGabhann]

the question was for vince really, but fair play for answering. You think b) tho? Seriously?

[vinceayre]

The Irish terrorist were different in so much as they didn't want to die during the attack. When your dealing with a group of people who believe that dying is a positive thing it makes it nigh on imposable to defend against it.

I do believe any foreign national who is claiming benefits should at the very least want to join our society and partake in being British, be that a British Muslim ,Hindu,Jew or Christian. We are after all a nation of immigrants, unless of course you have red hair and speak Gaelic. People have come here for century's and joined British society whilst still keeping their own cultural identity, why is it we have such problems with a small minority of Muslims. You don't hear of the Hindus or Jews running around screaming death to the infidels. The reason it happens is because we allow it to happen, we are too worried about upsetting people.

Any immigrant, especially one who is getting benefits, who thinks and acts in such a way as to do harm to this country should be told to go, its fairly simple if you don't like it here, leave and leave now, not in five years time after going to court. Why would any country put up with such a bizarre situation, who else does?

I certainly don't believe anybody should be kicked out simply because their foreign, but if they are here we should expect a positive contribution from them even if its only cultural and not financial.

Will we be attacked for this, yes.

Will we be attacked again anyway, yes

[Huguenot]

"You don't hear of the Hindus or Jews running around screaming death to the infidels"

I'm not sure that even my widely travelled idiot meter has heard that.

Any immigrant, especially one who is getting benefits, who thinks and acts in such a way as to do harm to this country should be told to go, its fairly simple if you don't like it here, leave and leave now"

Simple indeed. What words and phrases would you like in the statute book?

Emigrant as I am, I'd still like to see brainless idiots cleansed. Not being as clever as Vince or SteveT I'm struggling to define it. I'm thinking that anyone that makes me compulsively say "fuckwad" [pronounced wod] would be a good start, but it seems a particular prejudice.

I was struck by the recent campaign to engage stupid white men in the political system, otherwise they vote BNP. All the major parties are snorting that particular bumrut. What a tragedy. I note that homosexuality is now a capital crime in Uganda. You have like minds! Mind you, they is blick, so a valid opinion is apparently an oxymoron.

I'd just have a "white is right" rally on an east end barge and invite them to take lunch on a Thames sandbank. They don't no nuffink, so they wouldn't even recognise the parody as they sucked their last.

Who the feck gave these guys a voice... OH! democracy. I vote to take it away.

[monniemae]

'The Irish terrorists' were not so different, Vince, in that the villification and 'crackdowns' wrought against them by the media and security forces did nothing to dissuade them from their cause; worrying about 'upsetting people' wasn't an issue when it came to UK attitudes to the Irish in the 80s and yet, we still had terrorism. While indeed there wasn't a progression to suicide tactics, there was a celebration of 'martyrdom' for anyone who did die in the name of the cause. Oh and the same discredited assertions of an inherent 'problem' within the catholic faith is echoed in your crass suggestion that terrorism / 'problems' are unique to Muslims.

With regards to your comments on those claiming benefits, it's a lot less money than your horror would suggest - "Asylum seekers cannot claim mainstream welfare benefits including Income Support, Job Seekers Allowance and Housing Benefit. Those who meet a destitution test are eligible for Asylum Support (formerly known as NASS support)." the latter is around ?38 per week.

And as for the suggestion that 'if you don't like it here, leave' - take your pals with you, Vince. Thanks.

[Huguenot]

Was that the first for monniemae in the DR? It's a scorcher...

[????]

I don't think it's unreasonable that immigrants into any country at least try and accept some values and responsibilities with that, as most do. What are your views on evangelical christians preaching in Iraq/Afghanastan? How would the Singapore authorities take to you saying that ther system was an authoritarian illiberal one that needed bringing down for instance Hugenot? The bottom line is that we have in recent years allowed several prominent radical islamic preachers into our society who have subsequently spread their madness and a significant number of others who have absolutely no regard or respect for our liberal culture, society or democracy. Not very 'rainbow' but the truth.

[vinceayre]

The IRA and the recent terrorists are totally different by the single fact that they were not wishing to die during their atrocity.

I may be wrong and please correct me if I am but in the last 10 years all the suicide bombers / terrorist are Muslim, i haven't yet heard of any Jews Hindus Buddhist or Christians doing the same.

I was listening to the radio yesterday morning on a debate about this Muslim cleric who wants march at Wooten Basset against the war in Afghanistan, benefits of ?25,000 it said, hardly ?38.00 per week.

[mockney piers]

Then you haven't looked very hard have you vince, you've chosen that conclusion rather than come to it.

The modern suicide bomb as a terrorist tactic is the invention of the Tamil's (mostly Hindu) in their (now defeated) struggle for independence but yes perfected by the Islamist (note Islamist, not Muslim, a nihilistic political movement that owes much more to the red brigades and bader meinhoff than it does any imam, though characterised by a devout if bonkers and extreme take on Islam) hezbollah.

In war time we obviously have other examples such as the kamikazes and many examples in the Modena era (Chinese civil war, Korea, Vietnam) of soldiers strapped wih explosives taking out positions or command posts.

The hunger strikers in the maze prison were prepared to die on a point of principle that their fight was political and military, not criminal. Yes we can bandy about emotive terms lime atrocity, and yes obviously blowing up innocent people is both despicable and technically criminal, but to dismiss the political element and bring in racial or sectarian generalisations is both facile and unhelpful. The good Friday amnesties have ultimately proved bobby sands and co's point that it was indeed political.

As for quids, I'm by and large in agreement that people wishing to move here should make an effort to assimilate some of the values but ultimately be good citizens. Of the preachers I direct you to the post about how we tolerated those recruiting for insurgencies and rebellions all over the world for decades, much to the upset of many other countries. I believe the term is blowback.

Oh and hats of monniemae, top post.

[Keef]

The man you heard on the radio probably wasn't an asylum seeker. If someone is an asylum seeker, they have yet to be granted leave to remain in the UK. Once they meet the criteria of "Destitute Plus", which basically means destitue, and vulnerable in some way, they will be entitled to services from the local authority that is responsible for them (the one they turn up in and announce themselves to).

They are not given a penny in benefits from the welfare state, instead, they are given a living alowance by the local authority, that will come out of the social services budget. This is actually more like ?30 a week than ?38. The local authority will also house them, usually in a B&B or something like that.

The ?30 needs to feed and clothe them, as well as paying household bills. There is no extra.

Believe me Vince, it's a sh!tty way to live, and most people wouldn't choose it unless they really needed to.

Oh, and I'm not getting this info from something I read somewhere.

[KidKruger]

Slight digression but interesting reading how this thread has developed.

[Keef]

Yeah I'm not quite sure how we got here, but felt I needed to jump in with some facts.

[KidKruger]

healthy conversation anyways.