Charity Muggers

[Jonboy]

Just been charity mugged by a smiling fellow in a Shelter T-Shirt outside Somerfield.

Its bad enough in town, and now it comes to LL as well. Where will it all end? Will they start making house calls to relieve you of the tiny amount of money Gordon Brown allows one to keep?

[MadWorld74]

you tell them you already support several charities and they have to leave you alone. I used to be a 'charity mugger' along time ago....that's what we were told.

[Mark]

Just shrug when they approach you and say "Sorry, I don't speak English"

works every time

[Asset]

I actually do support two charities regularly so feel quite happy about telling them that, however I would not if it wasn't true. Why do you feel the need to lie? Why not say 'no thanks I don't give to charity'.

In re. Gordon Brown and tax - you do know that the UK has one of the lowest income tax rates in Europe don't you? Germany, France and Italy are all above 40% I believe. However we do have high excise rates - stealth tax.

[James]

Where I work there are loads so you run the gauntlet every time you nip out for lunch. I can't bear them! Once as I walked away shaking my head one said "well I hope you're never homeless" or something equally spiteful. Actually I have two standing orders to charities, not that I am obliged to advertise the fact. I would never give them the time of day.

[SeanMacGabhann]

You beat me to it Asset - the idea that we are way overtaxed is another one of the Mail true-isms that could fit in the Political Correctness gone mad thread. Try living in a Scandanavian country - now THAT is tax. Of course their crime rates are much lower and more socially cohesive but who wants that.

Now OBVIOUSLY I can think of lot's to do with the money I pay in tax every month if I didn't have to - but that's not really the point is it.. For comparison with other countries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

But Chuggers can go and run and jump....

[Mark]

> Why not say 'no thanks I don't give to charity'

because that would be a lie, I do give to charity. Having worked in Victoria I can relate to James on getting pestered by these collectors every lunchtime. "Hi, can you spare 2 minutes to save a child's life?" please don't make me feel guilty by walking past you, you're a salesman making/taking commission from a good cause. I prefer the people who stand there and collect with a tin (which I've done before) as you can give them some money and have a nice chat.

[Brendan]

Once I was in a not-so-good mood and when a smiling hippie in the day-glow vest approached me on Victoria Street for some or other charity I just snapped back that charity promotes weakness. (Of course I don?t really believe this and I do support a chosen charity)

The poor girl looked so crestfallen I felt bad and ended up donating my last tenner.

[mockney piers]

Apparently your first year's contributions go to the chugging agency alone and only subsequent years will make it into the charity's coffers. They are obliged to tell you this but it seems they don't.

Mind you 50% of anything given to the likes of the NSPCC goes on admin and advertising.

That's not to say don't do it, NSPCC does very good things, it's just the way it is. If you want to make your money go further choose some highly targeted charity or just chuck it at a hospital.

If only we paid more tax.....

[James]

If that's true about the first year going to the chuggers it's a total scandal!

Have to say I have a standing order to the NSPCC but am fed up receiving junk mail from them... is this what my money is going on?

[Keef]

James, if someone ever says "well I hope you're never homeless" to you again, just smile and tell them you won't because you're careful with your money, and don't waste it on charity ;-)

Seriously, I'm happy to give money to a volunteer collector. I've collected a couple of times, and my mum does it sometimes. However, when someone blocks my path to hassle me, I feel justified in walking straight through them, even if it means barging the annoying sh!t out the way!

Another reason I avoid these people is that the charities that can afford to hire fund raisers are the charities that make a lot of money anyway. Now I'm not saying they don't do great work, but I'd rather give my money to the smaller charities that need it a lot more.

[Jonboy]

Asset and Sean,

I apologise, I should have qualified my remark on tax. I meant to say..

The tiny amount of money Gordon Brown allows one to keep, compared to an index of how well state managed enterprises work and perform and in line with how safe I feel on the streets. This of course is also to be compared to the number of other things that I may necessarily have to fund myself as the state will not. Equally, its in proportion to the number of fantasy public sector job creation schemes which my taxes pay for such as a left handed lesbian outreach worker for asthma suffering Scottish families in Tower Hamlets.

Sorry again, i just couldn't be arsed to type it all out the first time.

Anyway, i think i've typed myself calm now.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Now, opinions are great and everything, but they only mean something if they are informed and not some self-pitying whine

If there is a job anywhere for "left handed lesbian outreach worker for asthma suffering Scottish families in Tower Hamlets" feel free to post a link - it should be worth a laugh if nothing else. But you can't because (drum roll) there isn't one

If you don't feel safe walking the streets is that a perception or a reality - I mean compared to any other world-major-city this size? Prefer to take your chances in Rio? Washington? Serious question - where in the world gets it right in your opinion JB?

Of course if you could just pay your money to some private company to look after poor little you you might be fine - but having paid taxes and NI in this country for over 20 years and never once using the NHS I'm still fairly content that all of those people who need hip-replacements, general point-of-entry care or just emergency wards on a Fri night are all being taken care of and don't have to fork out a mortgage just for the privilege should their employer not cover it. And unlike your diatribe I shall point some facts

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/03/AR2005110301143.html

I'm not making any claims for NHS efficiency - of course money gets wasted in any large organisation - but I would view it as the fairer system. And if Brown is taking THAT much off you you must be earning a wedge anyway

[Domitianus]

Most of these charity muggers are actually employed by private companies who offer fund-raising services to the charities who employ them. The amount that I recall going to the 'chugging' company in the first year was around 85% - not quite 100% but still very high.

If you are approached by a charity mugger they are obliged to commence the conversation with a "solicitation statement" along the lines of "I am paid by a company which is employed to fundraise by the charity I am representing". If they fail to do this they are in breach of either the law or a voluntary code (can't remember which). Simply say to them "You seem to have forgotten your solicitation statement."

Bottom line is that charities nowadays are forced to operate as businesses. Their paid staff (which includes most of the Head Office staff I am sure) are paid salaries (very healthy ones I am sure). They pay professional accountants, lawyers, designers, printers, PR firms etc, so it is no surprise that they also pay professional fundraisers. Obviously, how much a potential contributor feels this impacts on the charity ethos is a matter for each individual's own conscience.

I know this stuff as I was a Territory Manager for a 'chugging' firm in a previous life. It was unethical as hell and, after running into financial trouble, issued its first wave of staff redundancies (without statutarily required employee consultation) only two weeks or so after they won Investors In People accreditation (Now, IOP really is a load of s**te!)

[kingtubby]

Our tax rates even after stealth taxes are one of the lowest in Europe. Pure right-wing tosh to think otherwise.

I lived in America for nearly 3 years and it is a complete myth they are a country of low taxes. They may be low but there are loads of them. I lives in NY and had to pay federal, state, city taxes and a thing called FICA, plus sales tax on everything and they want a tip! End of day, I pay a lower percentage over here than in the US (I don't drive so don't pay road taxes & fuel duty). End result paid more tax and did not feel safe in some areas.

I read an article on tax rates the hedge fund managers contribute and it turns out to be less than their cleaners (ie about 15%).

[Domitianus]

I would be fascinated to find out how these hedge fund managers manage to pay only 15% tax bearing in mind the base rate is significantly higher than that.

[DaveR]

It's not that fascinating - non-domicile rules, offshore trusts, lots of avoidance scams involving things like options in non-UK companies. However, if it weren't for the relatively low tax rates they wouldn't be here (or paying any tax) at all.

[Asset]

Mark - you quoted me earlier about saying 'no thanks I don't give to charity'. My comment was in response to Madworld74's advice re. fobbing them off by saying you give to several already. My point was about feeling uncomfortable saying such a thing if it is not true. If you don't give to charity and for whatever reason don't want to, then maybe truth is the best policy.

Personally I try not to get too worked up about these people, it's easy to walk past them and if you spend all your time getting worked up about such things you're heading for a heart attack. They're just doing a job. Some in a not so good way, others are fine.

[Mark]

Apologies Asset, I thought you were referring to my "I don't speak English" jibe.

Time Out did a map once on how to walk down Oxford Street and where to cross to avoid the chuggers. And in the brief TV series Shoreditch Tw*t I believe there was a self appointed vigilante sniper who picked out chuggers in his quest to rid the streets of vermin. I get the impression they're just not very popular.

[Asset]

apology accepted although it could have referred to that too>:D

[TillieTrotter]

I dont mind dealing with chuggers on the street but I cant stand it when they hassle you at home on the telephone!!! GRRRR

[Brendan]

I get the impression they're just not very popular

More or less so than estate agents?

[Mark]

not sure, personally I'd prefer to whip an estate agent with a twisted, wet tea towel but I can't speak for the masses

[Keef]

You kinky thing you ;-)

[Domitianus]

So Dave, we are talking prolly about an overall tax rate of 15%, averaged out over a substantial income, almost certainly not avoidance of same level of tax at lower levels. And I think such hedge fund managers (always the popular choice when taking a pop at cpatalists) are fully entitled to do whatever they are able to avoid punitive taxation. After all, the government is happy to attempt to tax them at much higher levels once they stray (through their own hard work) into the higher tax bands. They are also probably hit with up to 40% CGT on a substantial part of their income. The upshot is, someone paying 15% of a million pound income is still paying VASTLY more into the system than his/her cleaner paying base rate on smaller income. Also prolly taking much less out of the system as such wealthy individuals are more likely to pay for private health care, education etc. Paying more and getting less doesn't sound a very good deal to me and I wish anyone who can find a way out of this fundamentally unjust system the very best.

It is unfortunate that these attempts to levy punitively high taxes against the more successful are the very things that drive talent out of the country. A close friend of mine, having been harrassed beyond belief by the Inland Revenue (completely unjustifiably in the view of ALL of his tax advisers who have been shocked at the conduct of the IR) has now left UK and is domiciled in continental Europe. One of his tax advisers (highly experienced who thought he had seen it all) is now so disillusioned by the Treasury and IR's tax activities that he himself is thinking of leaving the UK in disgust.

Perhaps a study of the concept of the Laffer Curve (?) might indicate that lower tax levies actually generate more revenues in the long term.