Harris Academy (new boys school for East Dulwich)

[TimJM]

Well it's apparent we're never going to agree on this but even taking your logic the academy is a contradiction. If you believe that private schools are better run why is this one entitled to public money and public land? (While we're at it removing the charitable status of existing private schools would even up the amount they have to spend per pupil).

You oppose nationalisation yet there are key services that even you don't want to risk to the vagaries of private capital. i.e. the police force and the army. The army investigated roll-on ferries and decided they were inherently unsafe. Private companies decided they were safe enough to make a profit from (even when the aptly named 'Herald of Free Enterprise' sinks costing 193 lives the private owners are unaccountable). Businesses can run risks with people's lives as long as the shareholders are happy.

If Harris acdemy save costs and build and run unsafe, unsuccessful schools it's the politicians and the rest of us who pay the price and bale them out. Of course Adam Smith economists would point out that it wouldn't be a successful business thereafter as it would lose 'customers' but frankly how many reckless examples of private capital gambling with people's lives do you want?

Railtrack continue to take vast sums of public money and cut costs on track maintainence. Compare the state invested railways and education systems of France and Germany with those of the UK and then explain how our system is so much better.

The NHS internal markets are increasing bureaucracy, costs and sacking nurses. The academies are a step in the same direction.

Successive govn's (Tory and New Labour) have already bought into the idea of internal markets and privitisation and the result is ever increasing chaos and lack of accountability.

Nobody in favour of the new academy seems to be able to explain why an overcrowded school, run by unelected, unaccountable businessmen is a good thing. And I'm really curious to know whether any of the advocates of such a school would be daft enough to send their children there. (John Selwyn Gummer please step forward!)

[macroban]

From the planning notice:

"[...] alterations to existing highway and creation of new pedestrian accesses including provision of servicing and parking access off Friern Road."

A little vague, but clearly they plan to have changes made outside their perimeter.

Does anyone have details?

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

We know that East Dulwich does not have a shortage of 950 (or 750) school places for secondary school boys, nor will the age cohorts coming through nor the demographic changes since the 2001 Census create the need for an extra 950 school places for boys.

The demographic data can be checked here.

The only way the extra 950 school places can be filled is bringing in boys from further North in the London Borough of Southwark.

Macroban

I would disagree with you on the number of local kids who need secondary school education. A school such as Goodrich will have at least 50 boys in every school year and add Heber and Goose Green to this and it will already make a sizeable dent into the 150 places. This is before you include the local schools from outside the SE22 postcode.

Also, the data that you gave us, if you study it carefully, completely contradicts your argument.

[macroban]

The data show:

Ages 0-14 = 1686 persons

Ages 10-19 = 1020 persons

[Note the age cohort overlap for the above]

Only if all these persons are male and Southwark intends to shut down all other secondary school places for East Dulwich boys will the Academy even approach being full.

I can only conclude that the Academy is not being planned as a secondary school for East Dulwich.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Its never been intended as a school just for East Dulwich residents has it? It will have a normal catchment area which will cover other districts as well. Believe me, if it takes in kids who live within a mile radius of its site, it will be heavily over-subscribed. The 2001 census clearly indicated that there was a sharp increase in the number of young families moving to the area and this has accelerated at a startling pace since.

[macroban]

The current (post 2001 Census) projections for the whole of Southwark are here.

There are, or will be, more than 950 secondary school boys within a mile radius who can't be placed in existing schools?

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Macroban

There, by 2009 will easily be 150 year 7 kids in the area that would not have previously fallen within the automatic catchment area for any secondary school, let alone a good one. Most East Dulwich kids are far from guaranteed a place at The Charter School, or even Kingsdale and the situation is getting worse. I also think the numbers will be inflated by families who no longer feel like they have to leave the area as their children approach the secondary school age, and by those who felt they had no real alternative but to educate their children privately.

As I said earlier, Goodrich alone will have 50 boys a year looking for local secondary school education.

[the-e-dealer]

As I Read it the School will OPEN with a YEAR 7 Intake. Building up to full capacity by 2015 so they are looking to the future not looking to fill it immediatly. I believe this is quite common with new schools

[*Bob*]

This is a very detailed and interesting discussion, but I feel like I'm missing some essential background information (maybe others are too), which perhaps someone can fill-in?

What are the current secondary school options for ED dwellers?

Which ones are private and which are not?

Which have religious affiliations?

Which ones are over-subscribed and which are under-subscribed?

[the-e-dealer]

Not aware of a boys school or co-ed in East Dulwich Girls provision is old Waverley (Now a Harris Academy)

[*Bob*]

Not specifically schools in SE22.

I suppose what I mean is, where do the children go to now?

[mumra]

Well, truth is Bob, it's a mixed bag round here. The amount of private schools (Dulwich Col, Alleyns, JAGs) does mean the secondary state schools are not as mixed as would be the ideal. But Charter (state) is definitely oversubscribed and now Kingsdale (state) is. Not sure if any ch from ED go to Waverley, sorry Harris, or Peckham Academy. Many look the borough of Lewisham to Haberdashers and others.

[Keef]

Back in my day (90's) East Dulwich boys mainly went to Forest Hill Boys, Thomas the apostle, or Aske's (Haberdashers). At that time, Charter was definitely a no go!!!!!!

[Keef]

Oh, and the school with the horrific green blazer (Deptford green maybe???). And maybe Bacons

[the-e-dealer]

I work with an inmate of william Penn (which is where the Charter is)

IT WAS BAD BAD BAD BAD ! But the Charter which replaced it is doing quite well.

What used to happen was Dulwich Kids would go to Lewisham and Lambeth KIds would go to William Penn.One of the WHOLE points of the EDEN Campaign was to have a LOCAL school.

[Marmora Man]

Re TimMJ's note yesterday: - I think we're im danger of straying into "lounge" territory but .......

Re: Harris Academy (new boys school for East Dulwich)

Posted by: TimJM Yesterday, 09:28PM

Well it's apparent we're never going to agree on this but even taking your logic the academy is a contradiction. Agree, that we?re unlikely to agree. I?m from free enterprise / competition is good end of the political spectrum ? I sense you're not! I have been known to read the Guardian but only to test the arguments of the opposition.

If you believe that private schools are better run why is this one entitled to public money and public land? To kick start a competitive market in education, something that hasn?t been the case for 140 years. I would prefer the Swedish model where the state offered transferable schooling vouchers and a swathe of privately run schools were created to cater for parent / child demand.[ /i]

While we're at it removing the charitable status of existing private schools would even up the amount they have to spend per pupil. Do LEAs pay taxes ? removing the charitable status would create an inequality in spend rather than the reverse. Anyway ? why knock a successful education service that costs the state nothing yet benefits the state by educating something like 10% of all children that otherwise would become a state task?

You oppose nationalisation yet there are key services that even you don't want to risk to the vagaries of private capital. i.e. the police force and the army. Yes, there are a few areas where I feel state provision makes sense but, as I said only a very few. Defence is one, but even here there are areas where some private provision makes sense (training / catering ? recruiting / accommodation) ? policing is another logical state service, although it could be argued that security (in the police / crime prevention sense) has already been part privatized, the abundance of private security companies visible in supermarkets, stores, housing estates and so on. Even the ?official police? themselves find it helpful / necessary to charge for their services ? so a hospital / shop / business can have a 24/7 police presence if it pays the salary costs and provides a base.

The army investigated roll-on ferries and decided they were inherently unsafe. Private companies decided they were safe enough to make a profit from (even when the aptly named 'Herald of Free Enterprise' sinks costing 193 lives the private owners are unaccountable). Businesses can run risks with people's lives as long as the shareholders are happy. Arguing from the specific to the general case is always a sign of a weak position. Can you demonstrate that nationalised industries / services are inherently more safe than those run by for profit companies? Shareholders become very unhappy when their capital / dividends / profits are put at risk by sloppy management and make every effort to have efficient management.

If Harris acdemy save costs and build and run unsafe, unsuccessful schools it's the politicians and the rest of us who pay the price and bale them out. This is not my proposition ? remember I wasn?t suggesting an Academy was inherently superior ? only that it represented a start in reducing the centralised, bureaucratic and costly control of education that is the current model.

Of course Adam Smith economists would point out that it wouldn't be a successful business thereafter as it would lose 'customers' but frankly how many reckless examples of private capital gambling with people's lives do you want? I would argue that countless lives have been blighted by lousy education ? the vast majority of which has been provided by the state. That?s recklessness on a scale that dwarfs anything the private sector could achieve.

Railtrack continue to take vast sums of public money and cut costs on track maintainence. As I said ? the privatization was botched. Given that it is now effectively back in state hands it is the state that is responsible for its poor performance and high costs.

Compare the state invested railways and education systems of France and Germany with those of the UK and then explain how our system is so much better. Along with France and Germany we too have state funded systems ? but we seem to end up with the worst of either world.

The NHS internal markets are increasing bureaucracy, costs and sacking nurses. The academies are a step in the same direction. The direction of travel in the NHS is toward Foundation Hospitals, by constitution, free from Treasury and other direct government control. Not a truly privatised service ? state funding of healthcare is the chosen system in UK but a step toward creating market driven, locally accountable, providers of healthcare. This is what we should be aiming for in education.

Successive govn's (Tory and New Labour) have already bought into the idea of internal markets and privitisation and the result is ever increasing chaos and lack of accountability. Both parties want to rig the free market ? being only a little bit competitive is like being a little bit pregnant - impossible, hence the apparent chaos. Airlines, clothes shops, book shops, shipping lines, car makers ? all seem to avoid chaos in a fully competitive free market.

Nobody in favour of the new academy seems to be able to explain why an overcrowded school, run by unelected, unaccountable businessmen is a good thing. And I'm really curious to know whether any of the advocates of such a school would be daft enough to send their children there. (John Selwyn Gummer please step forward!) Not me Gov ? I?m out of the bracket. The truly appalling issue is that 60 years after the Butler Education Act the country is still experimenting with its education system. It?s not a case of ?if it ain?t broke ? don?t fix it? so much as ?it?s always broke ? let?s tinker a bit to see what happens? Here, I sense, we might have some common ground.

[BigDad]

Nunhead & Peckham Rye Community Council Mtg751

Come along at 6pm to see the plans . Meeting starts at 7pm to hear more about?

? The proposals for Harris Boy?s Academy on Waverley Lower School site4

.Cossall Estate Tenants & Residents Hall,

48 Mortlock Close, Cossall Walk,

Peckham SE15

Apparently Harris will be there so they can tell us just how 950 boys will get a good education on that site, why they are not following the Governments plans for good design, just what facilities will be used and why they are not sharing with the girls school.

Do we want a school of 950 because there is the capacity in the area even though it gives us an overcrowded school that probably wont work so 150 boys every year dont have to travel but dont get the education they deserve... or a school that the site can support meaning that the 75-100 approx boys (guestimate) who do go get a good education?

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Do we want a school of 950 because there is the capacity in the area even though it gives us an overcrowded school that probably wont work so 150 boys every year dont have to travel but dont get the education they deserve... or a school that the site can support meaning that the 75-100 approx boys (guestimate) who do go get a good education?

You imply that the schools available at the moment are first-rate, this is clearly not the case. Hmmm, Harris Academy, East Dulwich or the Peckham Academy.....

[TimJM]

Actually the meeting about the Harris Academy school is Wednesday night - July 4th at 7pm

Southwark council meetings page....

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/YourCouncil/AgendasMinutes/AMCommunityCouncils/AMNunheadPeckhamRye.html

Map detailing location of meeting venue:

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/Uploads/FILE_28057.pdf

(Walk into Cossall Park and look for the estate maps indicating where the Residents Association hall is)

Agenda of tonight's meeting:

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/Uploads/FILE_28053.pdf

(Harris Academy presentation is item 7 scheduled for 7.30pm)

Not sure why the meeting is in such an obscure location but hopefully somebody will turn up! Unfortunately I'll just be finishing work at that time in W12.

[Debi]

For those people for whom Harris will not be an option (for whatever reason) I'd urge you to consider Kingsdale.

My son has been there since September and is absolutely thriving. They have wonderful resources, a totally dedicated and committed staff team and rapidly improving results.

Please don't listen to out-of-date negative propaganda. Check the recent Ofsted report.

http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/portal/site/Internet/menuitem.7c7b38b14d870c7bb1890a01637046a0/?event=getReport&urn=100844&inspectionNumber=285899&providerCategoryID=8192&fileName=\\school\\100\\s5_100844_20061122.xml

Or better still, arrange to visit the school yourself and speak to teachers and pupils. Keep an open mind and I guarantee you'll be impressed. At the very least, you'll see there are genuine options within the area.

[the-e-dealer]

I believe there has been significant investment in Kingsdale

[Debi]

Absolutely - and it's paid off - big time.

But money can only do so much. It's provided the amazing building and resources as well as raising the self-esteem of many of the pupils. But as I said before, it's the dedication and vision of the head and teaching staff that has really made a difference. They are very self-critical and always seeking further improvements and are also very parent-friendly and open.

If a child is engaged with his/her education, they will be given every opportunity and encouragement at Kingsdale.

[MichaelDavern]

As the Southwark NUT Joint Secretary and an anti-academies campaigner I was asked to share my comments concerning the Nunhead and Peckham Rye community council meeting on Wednesday night.

Firstly I was very impressed with the turnout there must have been over 150 people there, with lots of interest in the Highshore campaign as well as the Harris campaign. I was also impressed with Councillor Nardell who importantly reminded everyone that although a school was needed and needed in that location it didn't have to be owned and run by a carpet maker.

I agreed with the concerns about the building - indeed in today's South London Press I learnt that the designs are architectually flawed; the result of a rush job. However I was concerned upon hearing that some "deal" had been made with Harris over when opening the girls' School, to allow for a boys' school to be built with local parental involvement.

The NUT supports the idea of community schools - LEA controlled and accountable to the public for the public funds it is given. Academies are private concerns not subject to as much accountability, with their own procedures on admissions etc and are not subject to the Freedom of Information Act- so I do think that those people trying to make deals with Harris should be aware of that.

What they should probably push for is a Foundation School (like Charter) where parents have more control and whilst I would prefer a community comprehensive school to be built on that site (with an appropriate number of pupils!) a Foundation School is more preferable than an Academy.

My final impression from the meeting was that it was typical Southwark LEA - no question was properly answered and we all left feeling that the consultation process is a charade with Southwark always doing the minimum level and always stating that this way was the only way.

I do think that the EDEN/EDGE campaigners can win this fight - but I fear future fights with Harris once the school is open!

FIGHT FOR A FOUNDATION SCHOOL OR EVEN BETTER A COMMUNITY SCHOOL AND THEN YOU WILL HAVE MORE SAY ONCE IT IS OPENED - say no to Academies - keep state schools in public hands.

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In September Southwark NUT/Southwark Anti-Academies Alliance is planning a literary evening in East Dulwich with Frances Beckett (The Guardian) author of "The Great City Academy Fraud" and Terry Wrigley "Another School is Possible" we are looking for a venue so if you have any ideas or want more information contact me at [email protected]

[macroban]

Thank you, Mr Davern.

A secret deal is already in place?

[Ko]

Thanks for the info Michael.

This is just the sort of info I want. I too have concerns about Academies, although I'm by no means an expert on the subject.

In my opinion, these are the issues that are inportant (rather than debating car parking - yes I know its a consideration, but I feel there are more important issues that need to be looked at).

We need a school which will work for the children and, as I keep on saying, we need a decision to made according to what is in the best interests of the children. Not what is in the best interests of locals concerned about car parking or in the best interest of Lord Harris.