Best place to have a baby: Kings or Tommy's?

[sillywoman]

bonce Wrote:

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> Both units have the potential to be closed if full.To

> have women labouring in broom cupboards if busy,

>

Whist I agree with the content of your post bonce, I would just point out again that while St Thomas close the labour ward doors if they're full, Kings policy is to do all they can not to close, but rather to find you somewhere other than the labour ward to labour until a room becomes available.

otherwise, a very good post.

[ClareC]

If your booked in the Tommy's and they close the ward what do you do? Surely your not just left to get on with it in the corridor :-(

[Keef]

Clare, if they close the home from home, it just means you're put in the normal labour unit, and things like birthing pools probably won't be available. They do not have peolpe screaming in the corridors!

I have no opinion on Kings, as we've not had a baby there. However, I do think that one or 2 people have basically made up their minds about it from the off, and never really give it a chance. If it was a bit newer and shinier, I imagine it would be far more popular.

[ludoscotts]

hey clare, I had Ella at kings and it was fine, as Ive said we had complications and they were very worried about Ella but they kept me very calm and I was unaware of the potential problems allowing me to get on with things without worrying.It is a very busy dept and I was kept waiting 3 hours to have my stitches done after the birth as emergencies kept coming in taking priority but that was not the hospitals fault, It could quite easily have been a quiet night and I could have been in and out within a few hours if the labour had gone smoothly. The midwives were wonderful and I think once you have had the tour around you will get a different feeling for the place, its a very different atmos to the dept where you have your scan's done etc I certainly felt better about it once id looked around. Also for my first birth it was very very quick(2hrs 35 from start to finish!) so by the time I got in the car I was in full labour and the journey to kings was the most uncomfortable horrible journey of my life(also the journey home with lots of stitches,speed bumps would not have been welcome!)and it felt like it took hours to get there. Once to are in full labour you just want to get there as quickly and as easily as possible, If there is not much difference with statistics etc go for ease and comfort. xx

[sillywoman]

Clare, If Tommy's are full and they have to close then they will send you to another hospital - Kings probably;-) It is unlikely, but it does happen occasionally (once or twice a year?)

[The Nappy Lady]

I had both my girls at home, so no hospital experience, but have to say that having gone through labour twice the thought of getting in a car to get to hospital at that stage in my labour makes me shudder.

ClareC, I'm not suggesting you go for a home birth as you said in your OP that you felt scared, in which case being at home is not going to be right for you, but it is really interesting that one common thread in these posts is that the journey to hospital is not fun when in established labour, and being as close to your chosen place of birth as possible is a very important consideration. I really think you need to give that point a lot of thought. In my first labour I HAD (and yes I really do mean HAD) to be standing bent forwards over a chair, or later on my knees during each contraction....if I had to get in a car it would have been with me kneeling on the back seat.

I honestly feel that it can have a detrimental impact on your labour having to get in a car and get to the place you are going to give birth (though equally, if once in hospital you feel 'safer' then the journey is of course worth it). For me being at home, in my 'safe' environment let me fully concentrate on my labour, no distractions and the same midwives with me from start to finish. You need to get into your own headspace when you are labouring, and once in it if you can stay there it makes a big difference (and you body will help by releasing the necessary hormones etc. as you go along).

If you are in hospital I'd say the most important thing is not WHERE you are, but WHO you have with you...and how good they are at 'protecting you' - i.e. knowing how you want to labour, and dealing with any problems, queries from the hospital staff etc. so you can stay focussed.

I want to stress I am not ANTI hospital births, I think every woman should be free to labour where they feel most relaxed, safe and secure. But because of overcrowing, and the need to 'move women through' the labour wards I think not being admitted until the last minute is less than ideal, but of course necessary. Traipsing back and forth to hospital if you have a long early labour, only to be turned away and told to 'come back later' must be horrendous.

Just remember it is YOUR labour, whichever hospital you are in. Good luck!

Molly

[Keef]

We never had the option of Kings, it would have been Lewisham if we'd not gotten in to Tommy's. I have to say, I was more nervous about the rush to hospital, than actually watching Mrs Keef give birth! In the end, we were both kind of releived we ended up going for an induction, simply because we knew what was happening, and there was no mad phone calls to taxi firms.

[Pickle]

As I was induced both times I never had that panic either - was simply a case of getting in the car, driving there calmly, finding a park, getting myself settled in a room. So I guess it's worth bearing in mind that not everyone has to do the mad drive to the hospital mid-labour (just a shame that's something you can't plan for in month 1!). During labour I couldn't really have cared less who was there (Mr Pickle was banished to a chair on the other side of the room, all NCT massage techniques out the window as I didn't want anybody near me!), as long as there was someone there to catch the baby when the time came I was happy :)

[craigy]

just wanted to add something regarding all the chat about St Thomas' closing its doors when it is full and turning women away. As I understand it when they get to the point that they feel the unit is unsafe (and remember this is a huge unit with a very high risk referrals) then they will shut the unit for a period of time until it is deemed safe to reopen and this can be from a couple of hours to the whole day but this is not a decision that is taken lightly and all other options will be explored first. Then they will have to ring around other London maternity unit to see who will take their women and it is not always kings as they too are busy with their own women and the ambulance service will then be informed of this. If women phone up in labour they will be advised of the changes and asked not to come, community midwives will be sent out to assess and care for women at home if need be but if women pitch up in labour without calling first them they will not turn them away if they are in active labour.

I know I would rather labour in a unit that was considering itself to be safe at that time with the appropriate amount of women to staff rather than in a broom cupboard hoping and praying that someone remembered that I was there...

I think what Molly says is very true (and I do not think you sound anti hospital at all) that it is not about where you are but who you are with that is the important thing and also remember that it is one day of your life (hopefully) and that it is the outcome that is the important part and not the how....

[sillywoman]

You're quite right craigy - and Kings is the same, as are all maternity units. If thye feel they are 'unsafe' they will all close their doors and do as craigy describes. I guess it's just that each hospital follows it's own policy on what 'safe' constitutes, and what I aiming to illustrate is that Tommy's policy takes a harder line than Kings.

Your personal preference for not being in a broom cupboard is quite understandable - who would put that in their birth plan?! But I don't really think that's representational of Kings labour unit on the whole!

I'd also like to cheer Molly on for her lovely post - and I agree, your post was very well balanced with some very pertinent points rationally put Molly. Thanks.

[ClareC]

Thanks everyone, your comments / experiences have been really helpful.

We went on the labour tour of Kings last night..... was a very different experience to the one at Tommy's!!

I do have huge reservations about Tommy's namely availability and distance being the main ones, however, I got a good feeling there which I certainly did not get at Kings :-( I was really hoping that I would be pleasantly surprised by Kings and really did go with an open mind but I can honestly say I would rather have a home birth than go there (and I am far too scared to even contemplate that!)

To be fair Kings were busy last night however on arrival the waiting room was pretty full, lots of heavily pregnant women standing around with nowhere to sit whilst around half the seats were taken up by perfectly fit able bodied men! (Cant blame that one on Kings). There was a woman clearly in a great deal of pain in her dressing gown standing in the waiting room, presumably in established labour, not being seen to at all - she was told someone would be with her soon (she was still waiting when we left).

There were around 20 people doing the ward tour - the midwife who did the tour let us all through to the labour ward and didn't ask anyone to put the anti bacterial spray on their hands either on going out or leaving, she then took us to see the post natal ward which was pretty full of newborns (and presumably mums with ceasarian wounds), again, no mention of using the spray....................

The labour rooms themselves and and ward appeared to be OK, (ward cramped and noisty but didnt see Tommy's ward to compare) labour room was not quite as "shiny" but that is to be expected given its older. I really don't have an issue with that at all, I just want to feel confident in where I am going so I am as relaxed as possible.

I realise there are good and bad with both, going to go with my gut instinct which is Tommys - just felt peaceful and professsional and somewhere I would be happy to be. Kings did'nt nspire any good feelings at all - Given the more relaxed you are the easier birth you should have I think Tommys is for me.... albeit I am going to have to keep everything crossed they are not short staffed etc!

Dr appointment next week to organise... and I am still scared!!!

[The Nappy Lady]

Sounds like totally the right decision for you Clare.

Re being scared, I expect by the time you are 38 weeks preggers you will (like most I know) be desperate to go into labour and get the baby out so don't worry. Labour can be an amazing, positive, wonderful experience so do try to keep that in mind and don't listen to (or watch) anything that may lead you to think otherwise. Yes, it is painful, but not like being ill or breaking a leg because the pain has a purpose and a wonderful reward at the end of it all.

If you are feeling really nervous it may be worth investigating some hypno birthing classes to help you relax when the time comes?

Best tip I was ever given was to 'count my breaths' during each contraction, which gives you a focus, and also helps you to get through each one...so for instance my contractions in my first labour lasted 8 breaths, but when I got to the 4th breath it would be at its peak and rather than thinking "Oh boy I can't do this" I could think "it's OK, I'm at 4, by 5 it will be dropping off again"....and it always did.

Strange as it sounds, I really envy you as my labour and births were so amazing, I'd do it all again tomorrow if I could.

Anyway, decision made and so now I guess you can get on with enjoying the rest of your pregnancy!

Best wishes,

Molly

[Sanne Panne]

All very true Molly!

For the same reason you counted your breaths I used a TENS machine. Well, I originally got it for pain relief but in hindsight I think the main benefit was that it kept me occupied - it turned the contractions into a little ritual.

Lots of women have great birth experiences but like you said Clare, you tend to hear or read about the negative stories more often. We should start a positivie birth stories thread here some day.

[ClareC]

We should! Fingers crossed I will have one and will start a thread to that effect ;-)

I have borrowed a tens machine and am keeping my fingers crossed for a pool to be available! I think the incentive of keeping my partner with me after the birth should help me to not give in to an epidural ;-)

Incidentally I just spoke to a Tommy's midwife who confirmed they very rarely close the unit (she had only known it happen twice in the time she had worked there). She said, in the unlikely case they do, you just are admitted to the other section which means you cant't use the pool.

She also said that a high percentage of women who are admitted to the HfH unit actually give birth there - the only exceptions being those that decide they want an epidural and those with complications (mother or baby).

Fingers crossed for me starting a good birth experience thread ;-)

[Keef]

To be fair, when we were there and the unit was closed, it was a bank holiday.

[sillywoman]

ClareC Wrote:

> She also said that a high percentage of women who

> are admitted to the HfH unit actually give birth

> there - the only exceptions being those that

> decide they want an epidural and those with

> complications (mother or baby).

>

> Fingers crossed for me starting a good birth

> experience thread ;-)

Clare you've made the choice that's right for you and that's all that matters in the end. The stats for the home from home are that 18.4% of women booked into it were able to give birth there (2008). Fingers crossed that you are the one in five. I'll look forward to your 'positive births' thread in the new year.

[Monkey]

I gave birth at King's in August after I was not able to deliver my baby at home. The obstetrician and paediatrician who looked after me and the baby were WONDERFUL and I have nothing but praise for them. I stayed at King's for a couple of days and it is true that they could be a little bit more helpful when it comes to establishing breastfeeding or giving you painkillers but it's a very busy deparment and they do what they can. Some of the staff, like everywhere I guess, will try and get away with doing less than the bare minimum and I did complain about the lack of care I was given on the Saturday night (maybe a weekend problem) but I don't think it's something that would not happen at Tommy's or another hospital.

Overall I was very happy with the care I received and would not want to give birth anywhere else.

Agree with Ludoscotts that you want a hospital that's nearby... I travelled to King's in an ambulance with its sirens on and everyone kindly letting us through but even that short journey felt very long indeed.

[Belle]

Clare, I think you've made the right decision because you've chosen the place that feels right for you. You're right that it's all about you feeling as comfortable as possible. As molly says, now you can enjoy the rest of your pregnancy.

[Monkey]

Sorry Clare. The thread had moved on by the time I posted. Quite slow these days! Good luck with everything!

[bonce]

I think you are putting too much on the environment and not concentrating on yourself and your part in it. if you are negative and moany it will have an effect.

Wherever you give birth......... its your body and your baby that are doing the work. It def helps to relax and let go of the thinking part of your head and just let your body do the work that it is designed to do. When you are in active labour not only do you not really care that much about the room you are in, but also, even the people that are with you. of course it helps if you have a calm atmosphere, if the midwife is knowledgeable. empathetic, relaxed and kind and if you feel comfortable but tis not as important as perhaps you might think before you actually go into labour.

In the end as craigy said its just one day in your life, a very important and precious one, but women are doing it all over the world in all sorts of situations some of them a lot worse than Kings/St Thomas'/Lewisham on a bad day, and the hard work is when the baby actually comes..........

[tulip]

They are both excellent hospitals and you would be fine at either. Given how a lot of babies are born in this world they are in fact the lap of luxury with access to every bit of expertise and equipment you could wish for. Get over it.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Tulip, that was rude, no need to say 'Get over it'.

It never cease to amaze me how rude some people on this forum are.

[Belle]

These things are all relative Tulip and with a first baby it's bloody terrifying, so of course it's natural to worry about the place where you're going to be giving birth. I don't think it's the expertise anyone is questioning per se but the support and treatment particularly in terms of post natal care. I get a bit annoyed with people implying that people with stories of having had a difficult time are being unreasonable or that if you shout loudly enough you'll get the help you need - I complained of flashing lights and a headache for days, and had pre-eclampsia so alarm bells should have been ringing with any midwife but it was several days before I was seen by an obstetrecian (in fact I was seen 48 hours after one was first bleeped for me). I completely agree it's right to try and keep it all in perspective but I don't think anyone should undermine someone's individual birth experience nor should they question a pregnant woman's right to consider where she might give birth. Not saying that's what's being done here but just something I feel quite strongly about as I had a bad time myself. Sorry, tend to get a bit emotional about this!

[buggie]

Just to check ClareC - does the labour tour involve touching the newborn babies/ladies wounds??

If not then using the spray would have been of little benefit but was there (as am sure you saw) to use (and am guessing with the concerns you expressed you did).

Can imagine how much asking 20 people to use the alcohol spray would have disjointed the tour and think this point alone is very unfair to judge a tour on (but understand you had other concerns).

When visiting as family/friends of a patient, then obviously it would be expected to use the spray as it's expected you will have direct contact with them (and there are big posters advertising this on the entrance to all wards @ Kings - you may have seen these - and the midwife might have expected everyone to see them as well and act upon it appropriately).

Hope you have a positive experience where ever you decide to give birth, but for each positive or negative comment on here there are probably 10 more mum's who've had ok experiences but don't feel strongly positive or negative enough to post... similar to looking on trip advisor at a hotel - views are often polarized as people feel a drive to write due to either wanting people to have exactly the same experience or to avoid pitfalls.

[notapoppet]

Have to add a word for home birth....I had 3 at home and 1 in kings.....and i have to say home is best.