Best place to have a baby: Kings or Tommy's?

[ClareC]

I know this has been done before (ive read the comments and there seem to be equal good and bad comments for both hospitals). Wanted to get opinions from those that have done this before to help me with my decision.

I am currently booked in with Kings, although I have no complaints medically (infact ive been told they are the leaders in foetal medicine), most times I have been there I have felt there is a complete lack od bedside manner. It's certainly not true of everyone there but there do seem to be a large number of research fellows who clearly love what they do from a research prospective (and do a good job) but have no interest whatsoever in the people side. Conversely there have been two Sonographers there I have seen who were fantastic! (Ive had a fair few scans!).

My experience of the midwifes there has been mixed. My midwife I see every two weeks is lovely and the one that booked me in was great too. However, on the one occasion I called the number I was given because I was worried about something I did not feel at all reassured and felt like they thought I was a nurotic mother (probably true but its my first time, you do worry about things) and simply wasting their time. I have also been given incorrect information twice and when I visited did not find the labour ward to be a friendly or relaxing place.

I know they are busy, under resourced and doing a great and difficult job but quite honestly I am scared stiff of the whole giving birth thing, I need to feel relaxed and comfortable in my surroundings, I am really not convinced Kings are capable of this.

I considered home as an option which in theory is great but in practice I am scared so do not feel this is right for me the first time round - like the idea of Dr's etc close to hand.

Last night I visited Tommy's home from home unit - I got a really good feeling about the place and the midwives I saw were lovely (also were helpful when I called them). Seemed so much friendlier and as relaxing as a hospital could possibly be.

I am strongly considering changing, my reservations being its further to get to than Kings, if you have an epidural you have to go on the normal labour section just down the corridor (so miss out of the benefit of your partner staying with you 24 hours after the birth), they have less birth pools than kings and the actual hassle involved with changing at this stage (34 weeks). Would I have to change the midwfe I see every two weeks too? Or is it simply a case of getting a cab to Tommys instead of Kings on teh big day?

Any opinions / views/ experiences greatly received!!

Thanks

C

[Smiler]

Hi Clare, I too visited both, as like you had felt anxious about Kings. Someone on another thread said that Tommys were no longer taking referrals from our area? If they are taking referrals, you'd need to have another "booking in" appointment at Tommy's and your midwifery and postnatal care would also be shifted to there I think.

Suspect that big London hospitals are much of a muchness when it comes to bedside manner etc.!

I went for Kings as was nearer, and good thing I did as had to visit the maternal assessment unit several times in the last few weeks and get there in a big rush due to developments with labour. Was also easy for my partner to get to and from Kings when I stayed in after the birth and to get home with the baby when we were discharged.

As you say, the "home from home" unit at Tommy's can only be used if you need little intervention - as soon as you need anything like an epidural you get moved to the more medical bit. When I visited, think they said that only a small percentage of women who gave birth there actually did so in the "home from home" bit.

[legalbeagle]

I had both my babies at Tommy's and they were just completely and absolutey fantastic. I know every experience is different, and two of my friends had babies in Kings with no worries, but i loved Tommy's and would always recommend them. I think their facilities are newer than Kings too.

[sillywoman]

6 of one, half a dozen of the others Clare, as Smiler says they're both large NHS hospitals, there are examples of good and bad bedside manner to found in both. Anecdotally I don't hear any better of one than the other. It seems to be luck of the draw really. It's important to feel as comfortable as possible in your place of birth, but you have to remember that both Kings & Tommy's are NHS hospitals - they don't have all the resources available to them that they might wish for and this may be reflected in your antenatal, labour, birth & postnatal experience.

Just over 18% of women actually give birth in St Thomas' home from home unit, and their Caesarean rate is slightly higher than Kings (28.1% as compared to 26.8%), but they do have the lovely garden room & a couple of rooms with the fab view - so it's down to personal choice I guess?

Lastly, it's worth mentioning that Tommy's are struggling to meet the recommended 3 community midwife visits after you go home. They are taking on more staff to deal with this issue, but they won't be up and running until the Summer - too late for you sadly. This may not seem so important at this point (it's natural that this close to D-day your interests would be focussed on the labour and birth), but in the confusing early days with a new baby regular midwife visits can be a real comfort & reassurance. If you're out of their area Tommy's may transfer your postnatal care to Kings Midwives, if this is the case you'll need to ensure that Kings are aware of you so you don't fall between the gaps.

Good luck with your decision.

[Sanne Panne]

If the hospitals are indeed pretty much the same as sillywoman says I would choose the one that's nearest - King's. If your labour is fast or intense (mine was so fast I never made it to hospital and it was my first baby - it was a great experience though!) you want to spend as little time as possible in a car/cab feeling uncomfortable and/or worrying about traffic. As I told you when we met earlier today, having your own midwives accompany you to hospital can make a world of difference... the Forest Hill Road GP practice has this service and I believe the Dulwich Medical Centre now do it too (both for King's). If you switch GP practice to one of those (double check with the Dulwich Medical Centre that their midwives are indeed allowed to deliver your baby in hospital) you will have access to their midwives who are absolutely great.

[Mellors]

I wsa in Tommy's first time round and I'm afraid I didn't have a good experience.

I was turned away by them twice whilst in labour - once when I had just started (I was booked in for an epidural so had had to go anyway) then second time they sent me home at 3.5cm dilated to "get on with it" (first baby, and this was after 36 hours of labour already).

When I went back for the third time they tried to send me away again as they were too full, and it was only when I went completely mental that they examined me and found I was 9.5 cm dilated (on my own at home, terrified, with no midwife present). They did find space for me then, but because of the stress of it all (and believe me, driving to and from ED to Tommys whilst in labour in a Monday morning rush hour is hell personified) I ended up with an emergency c-section. It was unbelievably traumatic.

I also didnt get visited afterwards (I think Kings midwives were meant to come, but hadn't been notified of the birth), and it was only when I pleaded with them in tears that they finally came and took my stitches out.

I went privately second time and had an amazing, natural birth in 6 hours. No hospitals for me, ever again!

[Mellors]

Sorry, I realise thats not really very helpful.

I think my overall view would be to go to the closest place - there's a good chance you might get sent home if you are not far enough along, and I just wouldn't want to do the drive to Tommy's again in full labour (I vividly remember the speed bumps on Black Prince Road!).

[Belle]

Sanne Panne - the DMC midwives (Lanes) can deliver your baby at King's - I had two with me even when moved to theatre. They seemed to have a great relationship with the staff there.

I'd second the argument that it's best to be near - the drive to hospital in labour is not one you want to take too long, simply for comfort's sake, and it's so much easier if for any reason you do have to stay in after, if it's nearer. We were in during the snowstorm and my husband trudged through the snow from East D to see us - couldn't really ahve done that to Tommy's!

[sillywoman]

Ah yes, as Mellors says; Tommy's does turn you away & send you off to find another hospital if they're full. Kings doesn't, they have an open door policy - they will never turn any woman in established labour away, but you might have to labour in an office or whatever space they can find you until they can get a clean room for you. Rock & hard place?

[Keef]

Bear in mind that if they are short staffed when you go, Tommys sometimes close the home from home entirely.

[archery]

I had my baby in the home from home at Tommy's recently. Whilst it was bliss in the very calm water pool, they did close the unit the next day due to short staffing, which meant that had my little one been one day later, I would have been labouring in the corridor of the maternity unit or something similarly awful.

The home from home is fantasic, but it seems to be more luck than design as to whether you actually end up having your baby there.

BTW I used Addison Lee taxis to get there, which I would recommend as the driver was very calm and thoughtful (taking the speed bumps slowly etc) considering I was in full blown labour.

Good luck!

[KBN]

I cannot fault King's. I had my baby there 6 months ago and the care was fantastic. OK - the postnatal ward was a bit skanky, but I was not there for long, and the labour ward staff were awesome - calm, professional and very nice. I certainly felt relaxed all the way through (tho when reading my notes with hindsight I realised they had got worried about wee one and were keeping a close eye - no one let me panic at all).

And honestly, we live 5 mins drive from King's and it felt like the journey took forever. You really don't want the additional worry of traffic or being turned back and being in pain for a long journey: you want to be close by if you can so you can "stay in the zone" as much as possible.

Good luck!

[amydown]

I too had a really pleasant experience at King's. I did have the wonderful Lane's midwives with me which was the main factor I think but all the doctors that I came across in the labour ward were really friendly and nice. My postnatal experience wasn't as nice as the birth itself but this was only due to noisy neighbours and I felt really well looked after by the midwives and nurses in the postnatal ward.

[ClareC]

Thanks for all the information, this is really helpful. I am going to do the Kings tour on Thursday and am trying to keep an open mind :-)

Bit concerning that Tommy's closes the hfh section and sends people away - does this happen often?

Also, does anyone know the statistics for the percentage of women going to hfh who actually give birth there? I know 18% was mentioned earlier but I wasn't sure if that was 18% of all births at Tommys or 18% of people starting off at hfh.

C

[championcat]

I had my daughter at Tommy's. I would definitely go there again (over Kings any day of the week) but there are pros and cons.

The pros - once I was admitted they were lovely, respectful staff who always had time for me (we had problems getting feeding going so I was kept in til my little girl would suck properly), Home from Home is great and a peaceful, supportive place to recover from the birth, husband/ partner can stay with you on HFH, I was worried about pool availability but they have 2 so it's rarely an issue. Being in the water was maaaagic. For me the promise of my own room and hubby being with me was enough to make me resist an epidural, despite a hideously long back-to-back labour. Gorgeous views too which make for a lovely backdrop in your first photos with baby. The HFH was very clean (same couldn't be said for Kings on my visit)

The cons - parking is expensive and you'll be hit by the congestion charge too. In visiting hours there are nowhere near enough spaces so if you arrive in labour then - GOOD LUCK! Becuase we're out of the area in ED you'll need to trek a bit for mw appointments. Mine were in Vauxhall or Nine Elms, not exactly convenient for home or work. Your post-partum care will require you to be discharged from Tommy's into King's community midwives' care which is fine if you don't have complications post birth. Both me and my little girl had complications in the days and weeks after birth. She needed to be readmitted, TOmmy's wouldn't tkae her because she'd been discharged into Kings care, Kings couldn't admit her to maternity without going through A&E (ludicrous!) because she wasn't born there and TOmmy's had my notes. Final is the same as one of the other poster's - I had to go three times before they would accept I was in labour. I had a back to back labour and irregular contractions right up to the actual birth. I laboured for 6 days. Every time I went to Tommy's they put a monitor on my tummy and said it was "mild twinges" (mild twinges my AS% it was agony!!!!!!!) and sent me away. The third time I went I was literally a crazy woman from the lack of sleep for the best part of a week and the agony of contractions. I had to create a total scene to be allowed to stay - security were involved, a consultant came to sort out the rumpus. I told them I wasn't leaving til I had the baby and only at the point of me being hysterical did they concede to an internal examination which revealed that the "slight twinges" were in fact contractions and I was 7cm dilated. I had probably been like that for days on end as 11 hours later I was no further on. So Tommy's obviously have a strict "send 'em home til the last possible minute" policy! Oh and being 7cm dilated and having full on contractions one on top of the other is not much fun over speed bumps, in traffic, nervous hubby swerving in and out of bus lanes...

For me the biggest advantage was that it's not Kings. I hate that place!

Good luck with whatever you decide

[ClareC]

It was mentioned earlier that a number of the Dr surgery's around here seem to use team's of midwifes affiliated with Kings, giving you the benefit of your own midwife going to Kings with you and being there for the birth.

Unfortunately my surgery does not do this, I have a lovely midwife I see regularly but when it comes to the big day if I were to stick with Kings it's a case of we are in it alone until we get to Kings at which point its luck of the draw as to who is on duty and who we get.......

Presumably the midwives all know one another, is it a case that someone coming in with their dedicated midwife will automatically be prioritised over me.........

Is private stupidly expensive? Where do you go for private care? I only know the Portland from Hello/OK magazine when in the hairdressers ;-)

[goosemum]

I had both of mine at Kings and they were absolutely fantastic. Both were complicated births (one C section/premature, one natural) but if you are a worrier like me, then the best thing you can do is know that you are surrounded by the best doctors, midwives and equipment in the country. A friend gave me some good advice which I will pass on as I found it invaluable - don't expect the midwives to be there all the time to hold your hand - take a partner and/or friend to do this bit. When you need them (medically) they will be there. I found the midwives to be completely professional and polite and when the time came, I really didn't care whether or not I knew their names!

[Smiler]

Clare C - the person showing you round Tommy's should be able to provide statistics on number of days closed, number of women actually giving birth in the home etc. etc. You might have to ask, but when I went she had data to-hand.

Second others that the five minute journey to Kings feels like an eternity when you are in labour! Or if something unexpected happens and worried about the baby.

Re Kings and potentially having to giving birth in a cupboard / corridor / not having a dedicated midwife - brief your partner to be assertive - mine was a star! The staff are busy but will help.

Doubt they would prioritise someone coming in with their midwife (e.g. from the Lanes), they should prioritise based on clinical need, but I suppose if you are with a midwife you may be less anxious about waiting. Some private midwives might be licensed to work at Kings - think they are expensive, though, and they might not want to just do the birth, they might want you to buy a whole package of pre-natal care.

Private births (e.g. the Portland) cost a lot, and the costs are unpredictable 'cos it depends on how things go and how much intervention you need. A lot of the big London hospitals have private wings that do consultant or midwife-led births (Tommy's included), but don't think Kings does. Think Tommy's was about ?3000 for a straightforward private birth, no epidural, rising significantly with intervention, to about ?8k for a C-section with stay afterwards.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I had my baby three months ago at Kings. Never ever again. From the moment I stepped in that hospital to the moment I left, everything was a disaster. I found the majority of the staff rude and unhelpful. There were a few who were nice, but the ones who dealt with me, were not. It all went wrong from the trainee midwife inserting the pessary wrong, to the labour in which no communication was relayed back to myself, my mum or the dad. I ended up being cut and having a ventouse delivery, the whole thing was very traumatic for all of us. I had no help with the breastfeeding, the nurse just shoved my boob into my son's mouth making him gag, not noticing he was tongue tied ( thanks to a lovely midwife to visited me at home I got breast feeding established).

I could not walk after I gave birth and was completely drugged up from the pain, my mum and partner were not allowed to stay, I was left alone with a baby I was unable to feed, pick up or change his nappy. Asking for help was virtually impossible as they take ages to respond to the push for assistance alarm. I was stuck with a hungry, dirty baby in my arms until my mum came the next day as I had no help and could not move.

I could generally just be unlucky as a friend gave birth in Kings a week before me and had a wonderful team, and lots of help. I think if you can get your own midwife to go Kings with you then go Kings but if I had the choice again, I would go to St Thomas, my sister gave birth in Kings and St Thomas and chooses the latter any day.

I had wanted to go St Thomas and remembered posting on here asking for advice, most people advised Kings, I went with the majority but I regretted it, I should have gone with my gut instincts and then maybe it would have been just a little bit better than what I endured!

[Pickle]

I had good experiences at Kings for two births which involved a lot of intervention. After care is as to be expected in a busy London hospital, but as long as you're prepared to fend for yourself a bit it's fine (and chances are you won't need to stay in for long anyway). Saying that, after my first birth they were very helpful, and encouraged me to stay a night longer (I was in for 2 nights after having the baby) while I got feeding established.

I've no personal experience of Tommy's, but my sister in law had her first baby there and it was a complete disaster, resulting in a c-section wound in which she contracted the hospital superbug thingy (MRSA?), was pretty much crippled by it for 6 months afterwards.

Every experience is so different, so I don't think you can realistically make a decision based on other people's experiences. For me Kings was the only option I considered - close by, which was very useful when complications struck at 30 weeks in both pregnancies (was was admitted, and had monitoring a few times a week from that point onwards - this would have been hopeless if I wasn't booked at a nearby hospital). They know their stuff when it comes to all things baby, and even if you pay to go private somewhere else chances are you'll end up at Kings if anything goes "wrong".

Good luck.

P x

[katwhite]

ClareC: I am in the same position and have decided to try and get transferred to St Thomas's. My midwife was supportive and has faxed a booking form today to the hospital, she didn't suggest they wouldn't take the referral but i'll have to see. she did say to do it sooner rather than later with Christmas coming up (and I supposse you don't have too much longer to change anyway - I'm 30 weeks). I'll let you know the result. Good luck for your choice.

[katwhite]

Also, it wont change the midwife I see at the GP prior to birth and the team of midwives who visit you at home will be connected to Kings anyway.

[bonce]

Everyone has to realise how terribley over stretched both Kings and St Thomas' are. St Thomas unit was refurbished in 2003 for 3500 births a year and last year they had well over 7000. Both units have the potential to be closed if full.To have women labouring in broom cupboards if busy, Both units have lovely midwives doing a grand job in difficult circumstances. both will have midwives that might be cranky or looking after 3 women at the same time. Its also easy if things go left field in labour to think its someone fault when its just the luck of the draw.

[Ann]

Well said bonce. As far as I'm aware maternity units across the whole of London have seen increased birth rates.

They all can but do their best to cope. And on the whole they probably cope very well, but it's not a perfect world and maternity units in London have probably always been busy enough.

[Belle]

As I think i've prob said more than once on the forum, I did have grounds for several complaints with King's, and to their credit they apologised unreservedly on all counts, and it sounds like they have made some positive changes (within the limits mentioned above - short staffing not their fault but lack of communication between shift changes for example, is). I've heard good things about the changes there and wouldn't have a problem with going there if there is a next time. I do think it's true that all London hospitals will have these problems etc, but I also think there's a difference between that and serious issues - and it's worth being aware of the latter, even if it's just so you (or more likely, your partner) are psyched up to deal with it.

NB - my complaints were all associated with post natal care - found the care during delivery outstanding.