Your Prospective MP??

[Marmora Man]

Andy Stranack - featured in the Guardian, picked up for the Spectator and photographed for Care International for their Stand up Take Action Campaign.

Compare and contrast with our sitting MP - Harriet Harman and ask yourself who is the better person and more attuned to representing an inner city constituency.

[ratty]

not the tory.......

[*Bob*]

Voting for the constituency candidate, based on ability etc.

It's a nice idea, but fairly low down the list of reasons which decide how people vote in a GE.

In most cases I'm not even sure it would make the top five.

However, in Harriet's case I think it might make the top three.

[Marmora Man]

ratty Wrote:

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> not the tory.......

Deep analysis there ratty - how about answering the question posed?

Compare and contrast with our sitting MP - Harriet Harman and ask yourself who is the better person and more attuned to representing an inner city constituency.

[PeckhamRose]

Having just read the article I admire the man but no way will I vote for a Conservative or anyone else who says what religion they are as if that makes a difference.

The comments after the article are as interesting as the article itself.

The anecdote about the baby crawling around the bare council flat floor with dog faeces on the floor, has nothing to do with poverty and need for action from 'above', it has to do with not letting people have dogs (or kids... but that's another matter) if they can't look after them and can't prove they have the simple intellectual capacity or realisation that said faeces may need picking up. Anyway, whilst I have a lot of criticisms about our own current MP, I do NOT think she is ignorant of poverty, but she has become rather to institutionalised now, and does need reminding of things.

Also, the man's need to go on about the religious side of his nature is a huge problem. To me that's a mental problem. It has nothing to do with poverty and politics. And that's my opinion!

[geneie]

And now he's going to take a flat on an estate in Peckham - how noble of him. Like nobody else is in greater need of it?

[bignumber5]

The "man who refuses to be stereotyped" certainly seems to wear his demographics front and centre, though that is just as likely to be due to the reporting as the man.

My main area for thought is that knowing first hand that life is a bit pants in a certain constituency does not necessarily qualify one to represent that constituency in Parliament: the man's CV seems relatively devoid of significant work in government of any level, vs. the other candidates for C&P this is amplified. HH's CV is pretty well established, and I understand that Columba Blango is a councillor for the borough. Yes, everyone has to start somewhere, but straight into national government, as an underdog posterboy avec disability and God (which smacks fairly heavily of Cameron puppetry, his inspiring mentor) isn't going to be about issues, it's personalities/personal stories vs. traditional principles/voting trends. The CV point, for me, is that being an MP requires a certain knowledge of the system which he has yet to prove. To metaphor in my usual clumsy style, when going to court, one gets represented by a lawyer, not the bloke from flat 29c that has been sued a few times and survived so knows what you're going through. Personal experience isn't enough - proven knowledge of the system is a necessity, and one that Stranack appears to lack.

Certainly an interesting question MM, but as *Bob* says, voting based on issues rather than personalities or principles is a long way from the priority list of many at GE time, and it seems unlikely that we'll see a blue C&P constituency any time soon, based on previous polling results.

[????]

yeah, cos existing politicians have really proved themselves competent, honest and principled

[bignumber5]

You know what I mean, though. It's a risk assessment, like in any job, based on experience in the industry - you accept that your boss may bugger it up but you try to limit the chances of that by giving the post to someone with relevant experience in the industry. Unless you work in a reality TV show where dissatisfied members of the public get to run a supermarket chain.

Although if local knowledge now trumps experience in the industry, perhaps an EDF candidate... ?

[ratty]

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ratty Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > not the tory.......

>

> Deep analysis there ratty - how about answering

> the question posed?

>

> Compare and contrast with our sitting MP - Harriet

> Harman and ask yourself who is the better person

> and more attuned to representing an inner city

> constituency.

I work in Health and Social Care - something Tories do not believe in. I happen to think that the Tories are vile people who care for nothing but their own wealth and that of their peers. So, ask me who is the best person to vote for in an inner city, where poverty, poor health, drugs and total social exclusion are rife and common and my answer is... Not the Tory, because, by their very nature, they do not give a toss about these issues that are close to my heart. Voting Tory for me is voting for my clients to be left in the gutter without anyone to support them. So, ask me the question again.. same answer!!!

[LuLu Too]

Peckham Rose & Ratty have summed up my feelings on this.

I too work in a frontline health & social care position in this borough and for me, my voting in a GE is less about how I may benefit as an individual from a particular parties manifesto but how society in general, particularly those who are significantly disenfranchised and disempowered may benefit.

And I don't believe that under a Conservative Government, that this part of the population is best served.

The issue of Mr Stranack selling his maisonette in Croydon and moving into the Monks Hill Estate is interesting. On assumes therefore that he essentially made himself intentionally homeless and thus not entitled to local authority accommodation?

I am assuming he was accommodated in church housing on that estate as he is currently in Peckham.

Essentially, this Conservative is advocating Christian intervention (ie: church/charity) in place of Big Government intervention in addressing social need.

This discomforts me greatly (I suggest people read The Ryan Report - or the Irelands Catholic Shame thread in the lounge).

Once governments start pawning off civil functions of the state to religious groups then that way trouble lies in my opinion.

This man is a Conservative and likely conservative too (big & small C). I do not feel he represents my interests or those of the people I work with ( most of whom are unlikely to vote).

For that reason, I'm out.

[????]

Class war alive and well in 2009.......I thought we were in Salford 1925 for a minute.

Still at least one of the candidates isn't a Lord's daughter who privately educated her children and has independent wealth...oh hang on a minute!

[Brendan]

Well blow me down. They done gone got themselves a token poor person. Or so the cynical amongst us may say.

But I do concede MM?s initial point. Even though it is a blatant effort to get votes in an area populated by people who most conservatives have little identification with (and again those cynical bastards amongst may say, little concern or empathy for) I do think this guy will probably better identify with the community and represent it than ?arriot H.

[puzzled]

gawd elp us. a tory mp for peckham? shome mishtake shurely

[Ted Max]

MarmoraMan, you've never really squared this circle of appealing for reasoned debate about the issues, and then pushing Stranack's background at us versus privileged Harman. Do we play personality and class politics or not?

That notwithstanding, I asked a question a long time ago which I'm still interested in. What would be a decent result for Stranack? That question in full here.

[Marmora Man]

Ted Max Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> MarmoraMan, you've never really squared this

> circle of appealing for reasoned debate about the

> issues, and then pushing Stranack's background at

> us versus privileged Harman. Do we play

> personality and class politics or not?

In this case I believe in the man and am not looking at the wider General Election and policy debate. I simply consider him to be, potentially, a far better constituency MP for Camberwell & Peckham than the Right Honorable Harriet Harman QC. Not a class thing - more about Andy possessing real, direct experience of poverty & deprivation and thus realistic ideas for improvement, rather some lofty, ideological and distant commitment to help that is HH's way. I am more than happy to debate wider conservative policies and ideas on a different thread

> That notwithstanding, I asked a question a long

> time ago which I'm still interested in. What would

> be a decent result for Stranack? That question in

> full here.

What, in your opinion, would be a good result for Stranack, MarmoraMan?

Jessica Lee got 9.8% and third place in 2005. Jonathan Morgan 10.9% (3rd) in 2001 and Kim Humphreys 11.9% and second place in 1997.

In 1979 the Tory vote was at 28%, and they were still getting roughly a quarter of the vote in 1992. Can they get back to that level?

On another point, is there much of a party organisation in the constituency - or does it tend to get organised out of Dulwich? The LibDems are more organised within the constituency itself, are they not?

A good result would be to grow the conservative share - realistically he's unlikely to win - but if he manages to raise the profile of conservative policies in Camberwell & Peckham that would be good. If he can help raise the level of debate about these polices beyond the knee jerk "Tories bad, Left good" that would also help.

I believe it is possible to up the share of the vote toward 20%+ and even to 25% - I think the labour vote will, to a great extent, remain at home, that the Lib Dem vote will flatline and that, with vigorous campaigning Andy can lift the conservative vote to a higher plain. Secretly we'd love to see a "Harman Moment" to rival the Portillo Moment of 1997 - but that's probably the stuff of dreams, particularly as the Association's fund's are limited to what we as a group can generate, we have no access to outside funding nor, as yet, any generous donors.

The Constituency association all live in the constituency - me in my own home at the southern end in Marmora Road, others their own homes in Choumert Road or Camberwell Grove, others in social housing on different estates, some in rented and shared flats, and others dotted around but everyone, including Andy Stranack are within the constituency. We have a mixed make up - gay & straight, men & women, recent immigrants & long term residents, black, brown & white, professional & blue collar, ex CND & ex military.

The Lib Dems are fairly disorganised at Parliamentary level - tho' they have a fairly strong council campaigning base.

[Marmora Man]

I work in Health and Social Care - something Tories do not believe in. I happen to think that the Tories are vile people who care for nothing but their own wealth and that of their peers. So, ask me who is the best person to vote for in an inner city, where poverty, poor health, drugs and total social exclusion are rife and common and my answer is... Not the Tory, because, by their very nature, they do not give a toss about these issues that are close to my heart. Voting Tory for me is voting for my clients to be left in the gutter without anyone to support them. So, ask me the question again.. same answer!!!

I don't recognise your description of Conservatives as vile, self serving and wealth seeking. Your response reads as a rant rather than a balanced political argument.

I'm a Conservative and believe in the proper provision of health and social care. I don't happen to believe that centralised, monolithic bureaucracies are the best way to deliver effective services but I recognise the need and the benefits of having a decent healthcare system and social care. I also work in healthcare, I have seen the negative impact of government interference on effective provision of healthcare - I am certain that society can do better and that conservative policies would free up individuals to do more.

It would seem that you don't believe in the possibility change at an individual or group level - which is both a disappointing and limiting view of human nature.

Your view of Conservative Policies is incredibly skewed and prejudiced, not to say plain wrong - but even it were a fair description of policies up to 1997 surely it's sensible to consider the possibility of change, genuine concern and commitment on the part of the Conservative Party? I would recommend listening to Andy Stranack, reading the various policies being put forward by the Centre for Social Justice, review the outcomes of current Government policies over the last 12 years and compare.

[Marmora Man]

And a couple of more general points.

Peckham Rose - you know I yield to no one in my atheism - and I can assure you, and everyone, that Andy Stranack does not wear his religious interest on his sleeve or use it to publicly or privately justify his political stance. He does however live up to the standard he has set himself of living a "giving life" - which may derive from religious belief but can equally be a rational humanist response to the experiences he has had. Whatever the initial driver I would argue it has been a brave step, to move outside of the material comforts of life, that few would take - no matter how strong their desire to help others.

LuLu 2 - Andy is not advocating christian / charity intervention in place of big government - but he is arguing, from personal experience, that big government has failed and that other options, ideally locally based and bottom up initiatives are more likely to make a successful difference. I cannot comment on your other assumptions - except to say that Andy has lived in church funded properties for the last 10 years - usually sharing with 4 or 5 others. I don't see how this can be taken as a failing or as taking advantage?

[stereforth]

Andy Sranack would probably make a very good constituency MP. But in a general election there is much more at stake. Cameron's talk of help for the "deserving needy" through charities is inspired by a desire to reduce the level of tax paid by prospective tory voters. I have no love for New Labour or the divine Harriet but at least the Labour Party contains far more people who hold the ideals I share than would be found amongst the Conservatives.

By the way, according to my friends from the Catholic side in Northern Ireland, Enoch Powell had, and genial Ian Paisely has, a reputation as a very good, straight up, unbiased constituency MP but they could never vote for them. I am not in any way implying that Andy Stranack is as objectionable as those two; it's just that he's a Tory.

[Laurie Eggleston]

Since we've got ourselves a nice and interesting political debate going here, I may as well join in :)

Marmora Man - I agree with you that much of the Labour vote will stay at home, but your belief that the Lib Dem vote will flatline will be proved incorrect. We've never been stronger in C&P. Our candidate Columba Blango knows the constituency better than anyone. He has links with many groups and communities who traditionally vote Labour, who are now offering to join and help with his campaign. People are fed up of Labour, but no one in C&P has any real appetite for the Tories. So in answer to your question of who is the better person and more attuned to representing an inner city constituency, there's no doubt it is Columba.

I've met Andy a few times, and for a Tory he's OK, I don't think he's representative of the Tory party as a whole though. And the idea he will finish second is nonsense. Tell me, why do good candidates such as Andy never get near Tory seats they can win in?

Still, I'm enjoying the fact that Harriet won't just be able to have it all her own way and we've got a decent contest on our hands now.

[VikkiM]

I think a decent contest sounds good. Politicians should have to work for every vote and voters should feel inspired to turn out on election day.

Without wishing to suggest Harriet should take an election victory for granted ? as I wholeheartedly believe she shouldn?t ? I can?t see much evidence of the Labour vote not holding up in C&P. Look at any opinion poll and yes, Labour has lots of hard work to do, but many Labour MPs will still be returned to Westminster come general election day.

In C&P the Labour vote held up in 2005, again at the locals in 2006, in the GLA and mayoral elections in 2008 and again at the Europeans earlier this year. And whilst some of the people posting above don?t seem huge fans of Harriet my experience on the doorsteps is that she receives a hugely positive response.

I?ve not met Columba Blango so I think it best to reserve judgment. However, whilst events are often much more complicated than they seem when written down, I do think the comments he made earlier this month call into question his judgement. The BNP has always faced united opposition from the main political parties in Southwark. This should absolutely remain the case. There are some things that are far more important that party politics.

As for the Tories, well the gob-smackingly outrageous news that multi-millionaire Zac Goldsmith is a non dom sums them up to me! Tell me Laurie, which of their policies was it that made you go into coalition with them at the Town Hall?

[ratty]

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I work in Health and Social Care - something

> Tories do not believe in. I happen to think that

> the Tories are vile people who care for nothing

> but their own wealth and that of their peers. So,

> ask me who is the best person to vote for in an

> inner city, where poverty, poor health, drugs and

> total social exclusion are rife and common and my

> answer is... Not the Tory, because, by their very

> nature, they do not give a toss about these issues

> that are close to my heart. Voting Tory for me is

> voting for my clients to be left in the gutter

> without anyone to support them. So, ask me the

> question again.. same answer!!!

>

> I don't recognise your description of

> Conservatives as vile, self serving and wealth

> seeking. Your response reads as a rant rather than

> a balanced political argument.

>

> I'm a Conservative and believe in the proper

> provision of health and social care. I don't

> happen to believe that centralised, monolithic

> bureaucracies are the best way to deliver

> effective services but I recognise the need and

> the benefits of having a decent healthcare system

> and social care. I also work in healthcare, I have

> seen the negative impact of government

> interference on effective provision of healthcare

> - I am certain that society can do better and that

> conservative policies would free up individuals to

> do more.

>

> It would seem that you don't believe in the

> possibility change at an individual or group level

> - which is both a disappointing and limiting view

> of human nature.

>

> Your view of Conservative Policies is incredibly

> skewed and prejudiced, not to say plain wrong -

> but even it were a fair description of policies up

> to 1997 surely it's sensible to consider the

> possibility of change, genuine concern and

> commitment on the part of the Conservative Party?

> I would recommend listening to Andy Stranack,

> reading the various policies being put forward by

> the Centre for Social Justice, review the outcomes

> of current Government policies over the last 12

> years and compare.

Thanks for that arrogant response, everything I would expect from a tory. You obviously do not work in the same line as me because we have seen enormous benefits in the care and support of vulnerable people since the New Labour govt. That's what I care about. I beleive that a tory government (which I am saldy resigned to there being) will rip my sector apart. I guess we will see in a year or two who is right! (or left)

[SeanMacGabhann]

ratty - I frequently disagree with Marmora Man on his politics but I do admire the calmess with which he explains those beliefs (he does it much better than me for example) - the forum is a better place for people like him around

So I tend to agree with the points you are making but you can make your case easily without dismissing MM as simply arrogant.

[ratty]

It seemed arrogant to me, Sorry, but it did. Just as my response to him seemed a rant - it's all about opinions. Have yet to meet a tory that was not arrogant!

[????]

...they're not all vile scum either ratty, I think you sound like you've been on too many SWP marches.