Child abuse - Ireland's Catholic shame

[mockney piers]

I think I may indeed have gone to fat in saying it's rotten to the core, I should have said it's rotten at the core.

Constantine was on reflection the worst thing that could have happened to Christianity in the west. Had he just converted and granted freedom of worship then we probably wouldn't even have a vast institional church as we know it today.

The moment it became powerful and rich it effectively began to betray all the Christian principles it claims to uphold.

I say rotten ar the core because it has been since it's inception and is intrinsically so.

That's not to say I'm blind to it's achievements, the architecture, the patronage of the arts, the music (one of my most sublime experience was to listen to the monks sing to God in a tiny monastery in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere in Spain).

But the catholic church, unlike it's eastern orthodox or Armenian or Coptic cousins was very much a temporal and secular power and has done a huge number of bad things to maintain or extend it.

I'm not just talking about conversion by the sword in the new world or the inquisition or the auto de fe, it's not just hundreds of years ago. Cooperation with the Nazis as the lesser of two evils against communism, the explicit support of Franco etc

the hiding of the abuses is not an aberration but very much part of the way it operates, the continuity of the church precedes all other priorities. Martin Luther understood this. It's why there was a reformation.

[dulwichmum]

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[dulwichmum]

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[vinceayre]

ratty Wrote:

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> My MIL was systematically beaten by Nuns at school

Thankfully you managed to avoid hitting the F otherwise it would have been a very interesting post.

[mockney piers]

I'm sure that's a film you're describing now!!

[Jah Lush]

I'm sorry if this offends any of my Irish friends but where do you think these kind of jokes come from? They don't just spring up from nowhere. They have a basis in truth.

This little lad is peddling down the street on his bike in Dublin when he gets hit by a car doing about 60 miles an hour.

An old woman rushes over to him and sees that he`s really badly injured.

"An ambulance is on its way my son." She says." Do you want me to call for a priest?"

"No thanks Ma'am." Says the little boy, "Sex is the last thing on my mind right now!"

[stereforth]

Catholicism in Ireland meant political power.De Valera certainly did not wish to create a structure for promoting paedophiles but he laid down the basis for cultural backwardness with the church as its social police. I have known many lapsed catholics from northern Ireland who hated Britain's record in that country but the most common feeling was a similar hatred of what has been called "the dictatorship of priests". Although that does not excuse the excesses of Unionist rule in the north, it goes part way to explain their fear of a united Ireland.

Despite decades of compulsorily teaching the Irish language in schools the use of that language is getting less . One theory is young people associating it with the corruption in the church and consequently rejecting it.

I wonder how different life would be if Michael Collins (a hero of mine since my teens) had not been killed.

About twenty years ago a friend of mine moved from London to County Cork. He had bought a very cheap, tiny, derelict cottage and on the ferry got talking to a few people from the same area. He mentioned his intention to gut the interia. Two days later, out of the blue, these guys turned up on the doorstep to offer their help. As the work progressed they came to an old fireplace with stone Madonna statues either side. Out of devilment my mate picked up a sledgehammer and smashed one of the statues. His new Irish friends were at first speechless then each demanded the right to demolish the other one. They felt liberated.

Things have changed over there since EU money started flowing in (before the crash) and is certainly not what it was in the old days, but is still a charming holiday destination and were the job situation better, would be a fine place to raise children now the priests' grip is slipping. It's a bastard everything is so bloody expensive. Can't afford to go any more.

[Mick Mac]

a short history of Ireland....You tried to pretty much cover everything there.

[stereforth]

Sorry, Mic Mac.Too much lateral thinking. However (I'm off again)if Dublin governments hadn't been so allied to the church much of this would not have happened.

[dulwichmum]

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[SteveT]

Several friends have expressed fear and loathing at the nuns who taught them at school.

A number of friends have said some of the priests who taught them were sadistic perverts.

An ex girlfriend said she went to confession as an early teenager and the priest listened to her confession then said 'what do you do with your boyfriend' she said 'I don't have a boyfriend father' he said "what would you do if you had a boyfriend"?

She explained all this to her mother who said 'you don't have to go back to confession'.

[Mick Mac]

I had a modern "face to face" confession with a school priest once at age 17ish. I'm was not sure what to do when he suggested we "hug" afterwards..but safe to say that might have been as close as I came to the unfortunate circumstances some alter boys etc ended up in.

As might have been clear from my OP, I have no time for those who think they command automatic respect because they have been "chosen".

Unfortunatley many parents put their children in compromising circumstances due the the "automatic" respect that priests command in Irish society.

[dulwichmum]

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[Brendan]

I don?t see why people seem surprised that catholic priests end up being dysfunctional, weird or perverted individuals. The job description basically says, ?Need a support network? Want to feel important? Unable to have a normal relationship with another person? Try the priesthood.?

[womanofdulwich]

Brendan- I think they must be a bit weird to apply for the job in the first place? celibate? That is not normal.They will find sex somewhere.

[LuLu Too]

This issue and report isn't solely about paedophilia in the Catholic church in Ireland.

Like the Ryan Report it captures the pervasive malaise that was prevelant in Ireland up until the mid/late 1990's.

The capitulation and collusion of civil functions of the state (particularly the Gardai) is sickening and I am pleased that this aspect is to be further investigated.

For decades, since the foundation of the Irish state, up until present day, Irish Governments have essentially handed the Catholic church responsibility for education, health, social care and in some cases aspects of family law.

This is finally changing but still has some way to go in my opinion.

[Narnia]

Press conference

This is very apt I think.

[huncamunca]

I remember reading a paper on The Irish political economy some time ago. from a historical perspective, it was interesting reading & some points stuck - the resources that poor people made available to the church, usually to their own detriment - the favoured first son being given all the funds and assiatnce needed to get him into the priesthood if at all possible, whilst the rest of the family made do with whatever was left to keep themselves alive , perpetuating the circle of poverty.

[silverfox]

I'm confused what to make of all this.

1. Do not trust lapsed catholics, especially those of Irish origin.

2. There is an anti-catholic element here, hatred is an apt word (sorry Dulwich Mum but you are representative of many). Perhaps we should adopt for PC purposes the Ca-word which appears to placate some on here who are frightened to call a spade a spade.

3. I've absolutely no idea what De Valera has got to do with this (except to say he was a realist who basically told Irish youth to F-off abroad because we can't help you)

4. For the last time, keep things in perspective. If you judged the Islamic faith on the basis of mis-guided suicide bombers then you'd be a fool.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Yes silverfox, you are confused

[silverfox]

And you Sean are in error

[LegalEagle-ish]

How much contact have you had with the Catholic church Silverfox?

I was brought up an athiest because my mum had been tortured by Catholic nuns.

As far as I can tell, most of the anti-catholic feelings stated above come from ex-Catholics who understand how damaging the Catholic church is.

I became a Christian in 2001 and have come to the conclusion that the Catholic church is very good at putting people off learning anything about Jesus. It seems to be based, not on the bible, but on the Catholic church. The centralised power structure of the Catholic church is one of things that allows these abuses to continue and the total reverence expected of their flock.

I would like to add, that I know someone who worked in many African countries as a missionary and there has been the same degree of reverence imported into local Christian churches with the pastor and his wife being treated like royalty and abusing their positions in the same way.

I think blind faith and elevation of church leaders (along with greed and love of power) are the necessary ingredients for this kind of abuse to become endemic in any religious order. The lack of sex for Catholic priests, though, does seem to give the Catholic church the edge in this area!

[vinceayre]

I am uncomfortable with the seemingly uncontested fact that it is ok to call the catholic church evil dishonest and that they torture people therefore the whole catholic church is evil and dishonest.

If I were to say that because a lot of low level street crime in London is perpetrated by young black or Asian male youths that all blacks and Asians are criminals i would be called a racist.

If i were to say that because all the recent terrorist bombings in London New York and Madrid were carried out by only Muslims that all Muslims are terrorists i would be called Islamaphobic.

If I were to say that because the Israeli state is building on occupied Palestinian territory and bombing civilians that all Jews are warmongers i would be called anti Semitic.

I don't believe all black people are criminals

I don't believe all Muslims are terrorists

I don't believe all Jews are warmongers.

and I don't believe the whole institution of the catholic church are paedophiles and inherently evil.

[mockney piers]

Errant nonsense vinceayre, strawman after strawman.

If you said that the Israeli government was allowing building of settlements in contravention of international law and was guilty of systematically bombing civilians that that government was criminal then yes, you'd be right.

Nooone is saying that Catholics are bad, or that all priests are bad, but when the body politic of the church has systematically supressed knowledge of and protected those who committed wrong-doings, indeed moving them to places where the abuse continues then you can say that it is bad, and it is certainly criminal. If the chairman of Tescos had moved employees that they'd discovered had been beating up its customers* without informing the police, then doing it again when they beat up customers in the new store in the new town then I'm sure they'd go to jail.

Torture and killing used to be Catholic church policy and was so for quite some several hundreds of years; and believe you me it only changes when it is forced to, not because it wants to.

*a slightly silly comparison, but it works to all intents and purposes

[Huguenot]

This is the same Catholic Church that told 1 billion Africans and 400 million South Americans that condoms can't stop AIDS?

Over 25 million have so far died of AIDS in Africa, how many millions of those would not have died if the Catholic Church hadn't told those lies?

You don't think that mass murder on that scale is inherently evil?

What absolutely beggars belief is that such a huge constituency of adherents to this sociopathic organisation are prepared to deny the truth, and both diminish and indulge these crimes because the flower-arrangers are nice people.

It's like the mother of a serial killer refusing to accept that little Jimmy could have done terrible things because he's such a nice boy.

I'm not necessarily restricting my criticism to the Catholic Church, I feel as strongly about all organised religion. Also please don't confuse my criticism of the organisation with a prejudice against the followers. I regard them largely as victims.