Consultation on Bellenden Road - Holly Grove - Lyndhurst Way Cycling and Walking Improvements

[dan b]

No life threatening accidents as far as I can recall, but I'm not sure why some people seem to think this makes it a safe bit of road that doesn't need adjusting. I've lost count of the number of near misses and cyclists who skidded off their bikes after being undertaken by a car on the bend. It's an imperfect road system made dangerous by the fast and impatient driving of cars around it. I'm in favour of a solution which would calm the driving and make it safer for cyclists and pedestrians crossing.

[sally buying]

I have also lost count of the number of times that cyclists seem to do what they want coming round from Bellenden into the one way system whilst waiting at the P13 bus stop.

It is not alway cars that are problem. Perhaps people don't want to hear this as it might prick the bubble.

[Sally Eva]

Road users come in all shapes and sizes, degrees of sanity and patience. Good road design is safe to use. We seem unlikely to change human nature but we can change the design of this piece of road.

[Henry_17]

Sally Buying,

What actions specifically do you mean by cyclists doing what they want?

[sally buying]

Coming round the corner and weaving from side to side, then sitting in the right hand lane when they want to use the left hand lane down Lyndhurst at the right turn and cycling 2 a breast and refusing to move.

The system is very easy to use if common sense is applied.

Most use common sense but I suspect those that don't complain.

[Henry_17]

Sally,

To be clear, which road is the P13 stop that you witness this behaviour from on?

Cyclists and any other vehicle heading North coming from Bellenden road onto the one way system are required to change into the right hand lane from the left hand one on which they exit Bellenden in order to turn into Lyndhurst way. Is this what you refer to as weaving? or are you suggesting that having changed into the right lane they then weave back into the left and continue up Chadwick?

As for having observed cyclists side by side, it is legitimate for one cyclist to overtake a slower one. This will entail them being out of single file for the duration of the manoeuvre, and it will mean that vehicles with faster top speeds will need to wait until the manoeuvre is complete if they wish to overtake the cyclists in a safe manner.

[sally buying]

P13 on 1 way system Chadwick Road you don't need to weave to get up Chadwick Road. You do need to weave if you are on the right hand side and then cross left for Lydenhurst.

Easy to understand if you go and look at the road

[Henry_17]

Sally,

Easier still to understand had you used the word "weaving" correctly. Your complaint it seems is about cyclists changing lanes at a point at which they are required to do so by the road lay out. All vehicles wishing to follow the route under discussion are also required to change lanes at that point. None of them are weaving.

[sally buying]

Have it your way.

[rendelharris]

Henry_17 Wrote:

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> Sally,

>

> Easier still to understand had you used the word

> "weaving" correctly. Your complaint it seems is

> about cyclists changing lanes at a point at which

> they are required to do so by the road lay out.

> All vehicles wishing to follow the route under

> discussion are also required to change lanes at

> that point. None of them are weaving.

Spot on Henry - coming from Chadwick one has to move to the right of the lane in order not to block those wishing to carry on up the hill, then once round the bend one has to move to the left if wishing to go straight down Lyndhurst. Not 'weaving' - whatever that may be - following the rules of the road.

[sally buying]

I have seen riders come round Bellenden onto Chadwick moving immediately from left to right into the inside lane close to the pavement because they got it wrong and too fast and then swinging right out again to the left before going round the corner.

We are not talking about people keeping to the middle line.

[Henry_17]

Sally,

Since the constructive way to have this conversation is to explain our obviously opposing points of view to one another please allow me to speculate as to why you have observed this behaviour. Firstly I think most cyclists performing the manoeuvre you originally described are merely changing lanes, as is required of all vehicles on that route.

Regarding your clarification, yes, some road users exhibit hesitation under uncertainty, and change to a trajectory that is different to the one they instinctively set out upon. Such indecision is more likely to manifest when the user is under pressure. The junction we are discussing is a capital example of one where cyclists are under above average pressure, and this is primarily due to previously mentioned by multiple posters in this thread non negligible number of drivers decision to disregard their lack of right of way when accelerating from behind the dashed lines on the east portion of Chadwick should they observe a "gap" when only cyclists are approaching on Bellenden way.

I agree with your comment that it is not always the drivers, however in this instance believe that it is the majority of the time. I further believe that when it is the cyclist it is unfortunate because someone has been inconvenienced, however when it is the driver it is unfortunate because someone's life has been at risk.

[rendelharris]

What Henry said, better than I could. I'd only add that the section of the junction there is about thirty yards long, so car drivers slowing for a cyclist changing lanes will cost them what, about five seconds on their journey?

[Sally Eva]

This close passing of cyclists (sometimes within touching distance) is against the Highway Code but very difficult to enforce.

West Midlands Police ran traps to catch drivers doing this. A cycling policeman in plain clothes but with a video camera on his helmet cycled peacefully along and when dangerously overtaken he radioed to his uniformed mates further up the road who stopped the driver. Their remit was to warn him about the close passing but at the same time they found that such drivers often had no tax, insurance, MOT or driving licence.

The Met are planning to copy this. They are still working out the finer details (like how and where to do it).

[ed_pete]

Looks like Southwark are going for Option 2

"Due to the greater support for the concept 2 design, it is proposed that it will proceed to the next stage as the preferred solution."

bellenden_gyratory

bellenden_gyratory_option_2

[Beulah]

Hope so - Option 2 looks good to me.

[sally buying]

http://www.2.southwark.gov.uk/downloads/download/4766/bellenden_gyratory_option_2

This is the visual plan of the scheme.

Looks sensible

[mikeb]

So having built out the pavement on Bellenden Road, thus narrowing the road significantly, they are now adding a cycling contrafoow? So that's more dangerous for cyclists and reduced parking for residents. Brilliant.

This is making the remodelling of Townley / East Dulwich Grove look restrained and well-planned.

(More inflammatory comments edited)

[ed_pete]

Couldn't agree more Mike - Bellenden from Ganapati northwards looks too narrow for a cycle contraflow now that the pavements have been added on the right. I wouldn't be surprised if the build out on that Ganapati corner is changed again as a result of this scheme. Also don't fancy merging from the left hand cycle lane to turn right into Holly Grove. I'd also like to know who the quoted "support" is that preferred option 2 and how representative they were of the motorists, cyclists and pedestrians that travel through the area.

Overall, in my opinion, an utter waste of resources.

[rendelharris]

Hmm...so at present, turning left from Bellenden into Chadwick Road I signal and move across to the right hand side of the road immediately, and hug that all the way down to Holly Grove where I turn right. Using the new cycle lane I'd have to stay left and get across traffic wanting to go straight on up the hill on Chadwick, then again leave the cycle lane and cross the traffic wanting to go straight down Lyndhurst in order to turn into Holly Grove - two new potential accident points where there was none before! I'll definitely stick to my much safer right hand side route - and probably get shouted at by drivers wanting to know why I ain't using the %&*@ing cycle lane...

[mikeb]

Also that turning right into Lyndhurst and turning right onto Holly Grice will also be more dangerous because both junctions will be narrower

I particularly like "offset parking to reduce speed and allow manoeuvring" as if these were the same thing.

Is there any way of stopping these monomaniacs?

If it were someone else's money then I wouldn't mind so much. But it's not.

[gm99]

Have I misunderstood - it looks like there is no right turn from Bellenden Road onto Chadwick Road, heading south?

Must say I don't fancy the right turn from Holly Grove onto Bellenden heading south, with cars turning left across the cycle lane.

Edited to add: I also wonder about having a bike lane between parked cars and the pavement on Lyndhurst Way. On the other hand, the extra zebra crossings are a distinct plus for pedestrians.

[peckham_ryu]

gm99 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Have I misunderstood - it looks like there is no

> right turn from Bellenden Road onto Chadwick Road,

> heading south?

I think its just showing direction of traffic, I don't think its indicating a new "no right turn"

> Edited to add: I also wonder about having a bike

> lane between parked cars and the pavement

I suspect it's parking on the cycle lane, given that the separator is mountable. Rendering the cycle lane a complete pain when passing parked cars. Confusing drawing but ive never seen cycle lane inside patked cars, and doubt they would be introducing such a risky innovation here.

[Sally Eva]

cycle lanes are frequently put inside parked cars because of the risk of "car dooring" -- this happens when a driver opens his or her car door in front of a cyclist. In the best case scenario the cyclist falls off. In a worst case scenario the cyclist falls off and a car too close behind runs him or her over.

Putting the cycle lane inside the parked cars removes option 2.

[catma]

Hopefully this won't add hours onto my travel around my neighbourhood as we all queue to turn right onto Holly Grove...! However, whatever the outcome of this I will still find trying to pull out of Choumert (west) across Bellenden into Choumert (East) tricky due to the amount of bins, street furniture and other visual obstacles which mean you have to slowly edge forwards just to see round corners! All of which makes cyclists scowl!! The parked up cars and general ignoring of yellow lines in this bit of the road are far more obstructive yet haven't been included.