Consultation on Bellenden Road - Holly Grove - Lyndhurst Way Cycling and Walking Improvements

[spider69]

Why when they redesigned this junction not so long ago this was not thought of.

I don't think Southwark has a clue. Univ grads with no local experience only paper theory. Would not be surprised to learn they are employed on how cheap they are or have managed to answer the pc employment questions correctly.

[taper]

I've seen a lot of near accidents and near misses on the one way system at the bottom of Warwick Gardens, particularly at the junction between Lyndhurst Way and Holly Grove. People don't seem to understand the right of way system there and a lot of drivers really hammer it heading onto Bellenden Road. I don't think it's particularly bad for cyclists because of the one way. More of an issue for pedestrians and the general amenity of the area; which is essentially residential, but is blighted by the one way system.

Biggest issue for cyclists round there is the quality of road service on Lyndhurst Way, which is dreadful.

And the really big issue is that the whole of the Bellenden area is used as a rat run and cut-through. anything to address that would really make a big difference

[Earl Aelfheah]

You do occasionally get drivers coming out of Chadwick Road, cutting across cyclist travelling down Bellenden (usually idiots doing it quite intentionally). Agree that the surface on Lyndhurst is terrible and as said it's difficult to cross from and to Kelly Ave. to join the quietway. Otherwise, it seems OK cycling around Bellenden.

[James Barber]

www.crashmaps.co.uk shows a number of reported crashes around the area of proposed changes.

I'm a pretty confident cyclist and don't personally have trouble cycling this route - except the occasional driver not giving me sufficient space to be safe. But it's actually about encouraging non cyclists to cycle as well as making the area easier to walk and residents having a more pleasant area. And the changes shouldn't make through journeys a bit quick not being diverted around a one-way system. This assumes they're not already speeding.

[Charles Notice]

How will it make the area easier to walk? will people not use pavements any more and how will removing a small one way system and replacing it with two way traffic make it a more pleasant area?

How will it encourage non cyclists to cycle they still have to ride on busy inner london roads.

You state that there has been number of reported crashes around the area of proposed changes.

Would you please list them and what types of accidents they are if its not too much trouble

[wulfhound]

@rahrahrah the Peckham Road crossing is on traffic lights at least. Seems reasonably safe for cyclists, northbound you need to position yourself in front of traffic in the Lyndhurst Way queue (to avoid possible left/right hooks), southbound you have to keep an eye out for right turning traffic out of Lyndhurst, but overall it's not too bad.

I dare anyone car or cyclist to try and speed on Lyndhurst Way with all the speed bumps and parked traffic as to blockages on Bellenden Road outside the shops this is more to do with selfishness than anything.

By speed do you mean exceed the posted 20mph limit, or the 30 one that some on this forum wish was still in force? Piece of cake getting to 25 along there, car or bike. 35? Maybe not.

@ed_pete The problem with cycle training / ride leading / confidence building *on its own* (don't get me wrong.. think it's a great idea & all cyclists or would-be-cyclists should do it) is that it excludes the young from actually getting from A to B by bike. You can't train an 8-year-old to cycle independently in busy traffic conditions any more than you can train a pig to sing opera. They lack the basic physical and mental attributes required - most importantly, predictable behaviour themselves, good judgement in the face of the unexpected, and the ability to intuitively see things from other road users' point of view. Even older kids & young adults display some pretty questionable judgement on the roads all too often, as anyone who's ever tried to get under-21's car insurance knows all too well.

So while I don't believe in cycle paths everywhere - and I haven't seen anyone credible suggesting that - the kind of traffic volume reduction on minor streets which this scheme proposes does create conditions more suitable for some younger riders. I'm very much in favour of cyclists sharing the road with other traffic, but only in situations where the other traffic has been reduced/calmed to a point where few are excluded from cycling if they want to. The existing layout is fine if you keep your wits about you, but it does have a certain element of "surprise" (for pedestrians, cyclists & drivers alike) and the inexperienced aren't likely to cope well with that.

If you think cycling in London should be limited to the kind of people who are fit to hold a driving license, sure, leave it as is, it hasn't killed anyone AFAIK, but I personally think we should aspire to something a bit better than that.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Looking at the crash map it seems that two areas of concern are Chadwick Road (where it crosses Bellenden) and peckham road at the crossing from Lyndhurst Road to and from Kelly avenue. I'm not shocked.

The former, I can't see anyone being able to do much about. In my experience a lot of vehicles will see bikes and dash out in front of them regardless, because they don't want to be held up, or simply for sport. This is about education more than road layout in my opinion. There are a number of drivers who will go out of their way to cut up cyclists and this is a classic spot for the belligerent Top Gear watching van driver.

The second 'hotspot' could do with some attention - the crossing between Lyndhurst and Kelly Avenue. I believe it's outside the scope of this consultation though.

[catma]

So I looked on crashmap.co.uk and found that from 2011 it indicates 1 serious incident (Lyndhurst grovej/w lyndhurst way and 6 minor incidents in the broad area covered by the consultation. Whilst any incident is unwelcome (and without creating a crashmap login which I can't be bothered with right now I can't see the reports)these could just be car to car and have nothing to do with pedestrians and cyclists.

Having lived in the area for a long while now and as a pedestrian and driver (I don't cycle, I feel that what is really needed is some more pedestrian crossings to cross Chadwick maybe further up towards the j/w Lyndhurst Way and a way to better manage the roadcrossing from Chadwick rd east over Bellenden rd to chadwick Rd west. I have witnessed a bad accident here, but it was caused by both drivers not following the highway code - ie pulling out without due attention and driving too fast so unable to stop in time. Changing the road system won't change bad road use or pedestrian behaviours! The rest of the system works fine.

[Charles Notice]

Unfortunately we local residents will not have a say in this as local knowledge will be brushed aside in favour of new residents fear of moving traffic.

All that is needed is for the junctions to be looked at particularly the Bellenden cross over with both Chadwick Roads as three roads converge.

If you are stuck in lower Chadwick Road you will put your foot down to get across. As mentioned earlier patience and common sense seems to be lacking in this new generation. Never had these problems before.

[ed_pete]

Charles Notice Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Unfortunately we local residents will not have a

> say in this as local knowledge will be brushed

> aside in favour of new residents fear of moving

> traffic.

>

Why do people make statements like this ? What evidence do you have ? There is an open consultation - anyone can reply.

[Charles Notice]

Why? I only found out about this consultation by chance. I am not enrolled with Peckham vision etc. I did ask Southwark to keep me informed but they never did about future consultations after the last fiasco.

Experience has shown that if you are not in the loop you have no chance of commenting. Local and I want change mob will always push their own views and if it meets Southwarks requirements they will use that push it through.

Having been involved with Authorities I know the most vocal and pushy minority will always push it through if it meets the ruling parties requirements.

I suspect the vast majority of local residents know zip about this consultation.

Even though this effects the local area no local Cllrs has put their head above the parapet to comment Nothing strange in that they are Labour.

It will be interesting to see the figures relating to people voted.

Was you contacted about this?

[ed_pete]

No - there's a noticeboard on the route somewhere that I saw and then checked out the Southwark website.

[Charles Notice]

And most local residents would see and do that.

I think you have confirmed what I have indicated.

[Beulah]

@Charles Notice

I only found out about this consultation from on here. I have subsequently seen a notice attached to a lampost on Bellenden Road near Lidl but that's about it.

[Charles Notice]

"Re: Closure of Melbourne Grove to through traffic - new petitionjectio

Posted by ed_pete 23 December, 2015 20:51"

Usual rhetoric without evidence. However I am glad that Charles has highlighted the consultation on the changes to Bellenden Road / Holly Grove etc for which I will start a separate thread.

And if ed_pete had not kindly put up this thread who would have known about the consultation?

[James Barber]

Hi CN,

The one-way system when I've walked through the area appeared to me to encourage speeding making it harder to cross the road especially with children. Sorry I assumed this was obvious to anyone walking in the area.

I used to live on a one-way gyratory road. We also had it ended and made a huge improvement to the area while reducing the number of vehicles sent on a detour through the one-way system. After talking to a Labour councillor about it he told me the only person who was going to fix the problem was me - cack handed inspired me to get involved in local politics. Seems pretty obvious win win to me for all residents and people travelling through the area.

[Charles Notice]

"The one-way system when I've walked through the area appeared to me to encourage speeding making it harder to cross the road especially with children. Sorry I assumed this was obvious to anyone walking in the area."

As I live in the area of the one way system I would have thought as a resident I would have a better idea of the system than you who only walks through the area and who has well known fixed views on certain subjects.

What appears to you to be correct is not always the case. Melbourne Grove springs to mind and your view.

Please when commenting please do not do so under Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward.

You do not represent Lane Ward so please if you wish to comment do so as an ordinary person. So please drop the above

[dan b]

As someone living in the middle of the gyratory, I see a lot of drivers treat the Lyndhurst/Holly Grove/Bellenden turns as a chicane and taking the blind corners too fast to stop safely. I also see boy racers dangerously overtaking on the wide part of the one-way road between the Holly Grove/Bellenden corner and the Bellenden/Chadwick Rd junction. Accidents - maybe not. A lot of near misses - yes.

[James Barber]

Hi CN,

If I were to comment without making it clear I'm a councillor some would accuse me of being less transparent.

You can register on the Southwark Council website to be email when any documents with the key words your log are posted on the council website. If you were to use this service you shouldn't need to randomly check notice boards any more or read the small ads section of local newspapers for public notices. Hope this helps. If you get stuck working out how to do this I'll did out a link for you.

[Charles Notice]

Thank you for your reply however could you respond to the message below which you seem to have missed.

How will it make the area easier to walk? will people not use pavements any more and how will removing a small one way system and replacing it with two way traffic make it a more pleasant area?

How will it encourage non cyclists to cycle they still have to ride on busy inner london roads.

You state that there has been number of reported crashes around the area of proposed changes.

Would you please list them and what types of accidents they are if its not too much trouble

Regards

[Sporthuntor]

Cycle through here most days, can't see any real benefit here at all.

When will the council stop messing around with these sort of cosmetic exercises at a time when money is tight?

At least spend the money we do have on something meaningful!

[Earl Aelfheah]

More covered, secure bike parking near people's homes and at public transport destination would get. Lot more pool cycling than tinkering with road layouts. Why can't you park a bike safely at Brixton, our nearest tube for example?

[rupert jones]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi CN,

> The one-way system when I've walked through the

> area appeared to me to encourage speeding making

> it harder to cross the road especially with

> children. Sorry I assumed this was obvious to

> anyone walking in the area.

>

> I used to live on a one-way gyratory road. We also

> had it ended and made a huge improvement to the

> area while reducing the number of vehicles sent on

> a detour through the one-way system. After talking

> to a Labour councillor about it he told me the

> only person who was going to fix the problem was

> me - cack handed inspired me to get involved in

> local politics. Seems pretty obvious win win to me

> for all residents and people travelling through

> the area.

Just got it. The Caine Munity. Humphry Bogart.

[rfolgado]

Strongly support these improvements, to an area which is finally starting to fulfill its potential. There will always be people against any change, and it's impossible to please everyone or come up with the perfect solution for everything.

[gm99]

For those claiming to live in the area affected but not to have known about the consultation: there's a large banner on the railings of Warwick Gardens opposite Holly Grove, which has been there since before Christmas.