Consultation on Bellenden Road - Holly Grove - Lyndhurst Way Cycling and Walking Improvements

[ed_pete]

Southwark are consulting on changes to the road layout around Bellenden Road, the intentions of which are (to quote Southwark)

Promote Bellenden Road as the quieter route for cycling and walking in line with the Council?s adopted cycling strategy (Southwark Spine).

Improve conditions for walking and access to green spaces.

Improve safety at junctions for all road users.

The consultation is open until 16th January 2016 should you wish to comment.

https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/cyclingandwalkingimprovements/consult_view

For what it's worth, I use this route as a cyclist most working days and although I can see that the proposed changes would make it better for cyclists I really don't think it's that bad at present and I think the changes unnecessary.

[greenwater]

Here here... Not sure of the real benefit.

[macutd]

Great for cyclists but makes it worse for cars as usual.

Can't they improve it for cyclists without continuing to downgrade the situation for the car driver?

[spider69]

Is it great for cyclists? as the intention is for two way traffic they still have to use the same road now with less space.

Also there will be a greater number of junctions unlike free flowing traffic all round as now.

Pedestrians can and always have been able to walk in safety, and there is no problem accessing the existing green spaces. Why can common sense not prevail over a hidden political agenda. Ill thought out 20mph on all roads for instance

As has been pointed out it is a tried and tested route.Perhaps it is the thought of free money that has clouded Southwark thought pattern in this.

Please leave as is

No benefit at all. Please leave alone

[ed_pete]

I don't think the agenda is hidden. The Mayor's (BJ) transport strategy is to get people walking and cycling more and the Council is obliged to have transport strategy that supports this. However in this instance, speaking as an experienced cyclist I agree there is no need for change. Whether the changes would encourage more people to walk and cycle, the cynic in me very much doubts.

[DiD]

I think its much better for cyclists. As a family who cycles, including with our son, going around the one-way system is quite fraught. Cars don't like us when we're on the right hand side, and if you're on the left hand side, you have to cross 2 lanes of traffic. There are buses in the way that you have to go around, and they may not see you coming around the corner (if you're going towards Peckham High street). Coming the other way, it makes no sense if you're going down Bellenden Road, to have to go around the one-way system. Personally, I would have no problem with it being 2 way for bikes, keeping it as it is for cars, as its often that way in other parts of the city, but apparently that wasn't an option.

From a driving perspective, I would think there's an advantage of avoiding the one-way system, too, if you want to turn right at Blenheim grove to drop someone at the station.

[greenwater]

Spider69 - I also noted the point regarding junctions replacing free-flowing systems. I like to think the council will have studied this point carefully, although my fear is queuing traffic at the proposed Chadwick / Bellenden junction.

[James Barber]

I would think these changes are good for residents - especially if tweaked to create a net gain in parking spaces. Good for cyclists and those who may cycle when they feel safer. And defiantly better for people walking there.

One-way system result in speeding as a general rule. So for those drivers who want to stick to the legal speed limits I'd hope they like me would appreciate less pressure from others to speed that these changes should result in.

[richard tudor]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I would think these changes are good for residents

> - especially if tweaked to create a net gain in

> parking spaces. Good for cyclists and those who

> may cycle when they feel safer. And defiantly

> better for people walking there.

>

> One-way system result in speeding as a general

> rule. So for those drivers who want to stick to

> the legal speed limits I'd hope they like me would

> appreciate less pressure from others to speed that

> these changes should result in.

Spider69 wrote.

Is it great for cyclists? as the intention is for two way traffic they still have to use the same road now with less space.

Also there will be a greater number of junctions unlike free flowing traffic all round as now.

Pedestrians can and always have been able to walk in safety, and there is no problem accessing the existing green spaces. Why can common sense not prevail over political agenda. Ill thought out 20mph on all roads for instance

As has been pointed out it is a tried and tested route.Perhaps it is the thought of free money that has clouded Southwark thought pattern in this.

Please leave as is

No benefit at all. Please leave alone/

As as a local resident I endorse all of what is written above. I use this every day and there is no problem

whatsoever. This knowledge is from when it actually went in 1989.

How will it better for people walking there?

I do wish that you would concentrate on ED matters and not other local matters that you have no representation for.

If you wish to comment use a separate forum name that does not imply political imput.

If cyclists actually showed a little common sense using this system there is no problem. Out of interest just how many accidents have there been on this system since 1989 to the present.

I have watched them use this system on a daily basis and whilst most are sensible there are those that should not be let loose on a pavement let alone a road.

It is interesting to note that since "Bellenden Village" appeared it is all change perhaps people should recognise that this is Inner London not the shires and things move at a different pace if something is working why change it.

If you actually stood and watched the traffic you would see that there is no problem and the road layout is well designed. Anything above 20mph is a rare happening along Bellenden Road.

As Southwark has asked for email consultation the result is a forgone conclusion in my opinion as they will have no idea who the people commenting actually are.

Decision by mass media not local requirement. I am sure that there are many other road projects that are more urgently required than this.

I hope they do not change for the sake of change. LEAVE AS IS>

[Crokes]

Thanks for highlighting the consultation - would not have been aware of it otherwise. Response completed and hope the proposals are binned/they invest in something more worthwhile.

[tiddles]

Yes more flipping twiddling. Accident info would be useful. And pity the local businesses who will bear the brunt of roadworks making their businesses less accessible to passing trade. I remember when there were some very lengthy road works there some years ago which hit them very hard (one of my favourite clothes shops just had to give up in the end with just too many disruptions.

[rabbitears]

Cycling infrastructure upgrades aren't designed to make people who have been commuting for 29 years feel safer (primarily). They're meant to open up cycling in London to people who aren't already cycling.

"London not the shires"

Yeah, it's London, not the shires, and there's not space for everyone to drive their SUVs around...

[neilson99]

Yes, TFL and Southwark Council should be trusted to get on and do what is in the best interests of residents, transport users and businesses - look what a great improvement they have made to Walworth Road, Oval, Vauxhall and Elephant and Castle.

Given it takes me an hour to commute from Talfourd Place SE15 to The Strand, (a journey of c.5 miles) I often get off the bus and walk as its my quicker than enduring the mess that has been presided over by wrong headed and ignorant public servants intent on spending more tax payer money to make "improvements" - code for keep themselves in a job with their latest hair brained scheme.

They have made such a cock up and make life difficult for residents who use public or private transport that isn't walking or cycling to go about normal day to day life I would vote for transport policy being taken off TFL, the Mayors Office and Southwark Council and being given to some independent commission that has the interests of transport users and residents in mind, not furthering its own existence.

[James Barber]

Hi neilson99,

The Walworth Road upgrade what 8 years ago appears pretty successful to me. Instead of literally fencing both sides virtually the whole length to keep pedestrians on pavements and caged. I agree with you general point but not that particular example.

[Beulah]

Having used the area as a motorist, cyclist and pedestrian over quite a number of years, the changes make sense to me.

The area around chadwick road and bellenden is not pedestrian-friendly at all especially near the Ganapatti restaurant. The traffic comes round the corners quickly and you have to be quick to cross - very very few motorists give way.

Try moving quickly with two kids and a pram - and what about those who can't physically sprint across?

Yes, you can walk another 50m or so and use the zebra crossings further up - but why should it always be pedestrians who are inconvenienced to the benefit of cars?

Also by the restaurant, the road divides three ways, which makes it confusing for pedestrians especially as London drivers don't like to use their indicators.

For cycling it's not much better either: Drivers tend to speed along one-way streets even more than they do on two-way streets.

I agree it will be more inconvenient for driving, but I stopped enjoying driving in London many years ago. It's not going to improve.

[DiD]

I fear that the consultation will mainly be dominated by people who don't like the plans -- drivers. Hoping people who support the plans -- pedestrians, cyclists, especially with young children (my child no longer young, but I agree with @Beulah, above) will submit a response.

[wulfhound]

Have done so, DiD - but they're going to need to do something on Lyndhurst Way. The proposal ought to make the Bellenden area, or most of it, good enough for more secondary school kids to cycle (Choumert / Chadwick end of things likely to be a bit of a snarl still). But, by pushing more traffic on to Lyndhurst, that's going to need intervention to get them the rest of the way to the Harris. Seems to me that they could fit a protected cycle track along one or other side of Lyndhurst if they so wished.

[rupert jones]

As a local resident who walks and cycles this route daily I can see nothing wrong with it at all.

Crossing points are adequate for what is required although I would agree that the Holly Grove/Bellenden Road junction and Chadwick Road/Lyndhurst Way junction could be improved.

"The area around chadwick road and bellenden is not pedestrian-friendly at all especially near the Ganapatti restaurant. The traffic comes round the corners quickly and you have to be quick to cross - very very few motorists give way.

Try moving quickly with two kids and a pram - and what about those who can't physically sprint across? "

In answer to that do not cross until clear. You imply that there is a constant flow of traffic with no breaks that is not true.

"The proposal ought to make the Bellenden area, or most of it, good enough for more secondary school kids to cycle (Choumert / Chadwick end of things likely to be a bit of a snarl still). But, by pushing more traffic on to Lyndhurst, that's going to need intervention to get them the rest of the way to the Harris. Seems to me that they could fit a protected cycle track along one or other side of Lyndhurst if they so wished."

From the end of the the one way system into Lyndhurst it is two way already and traffic will still be the same and closing roads off will only make other roads even more crowded

I am not sure how you would fit in a protected cycle track

without making the road narrow and dangerous. However if it is a plan to rid the area of residents parking I can see the logic. Cllr Barber seems to think this scheme will provide more parking he is in my opinion wrong.

Children cycling to Harris school I somehow cannot see that happening.

One point that has not been mentioned in all of this is moving the bus stop from Chadwick Road to Blenheim Grove. As this is the only halfway point from Bellenden Road school until Blenheim Grove which will not help the older generation who have to walk. Still think of the kids and cyclists

As someone mentioned earlier if people used a little common sense there would be no problem.

I dont think this consultation will be dominated by drivers as I think most local residents who are not in the loop

will even know about it I only heard of it by chance, it will be decided by those who are tuned into decision by media. Which is what Southwark wants. Having been to a number of Community meetings over the years it has always been that small group who shout the loudest and articulate that get heard not the bulk of local residents who never hear about the meetings.

I am against this scheme although improving crossings on a number of junctions would be an improvement but Southwark will make sure they mess it up.

It is a tried and tested road system that has shown it works and does not need any fiddling.

Someone asked in an earlier comment show us the accident figures for this system. Would be difficult as I cannot remember any which implies it is safe as is.

I have voted against and I am not even a driver only a local resident.

I have even joined the Forum to express this fact.

[gm99]

I walk (school run) and cycle (from school to work) through this area daily, plus drive it fairly frequently. I am a confident cyclist. I would make the following observations, about the current road layout and the proposals, taking them roughly from north to south:

- Both Lyndhurst Grove and especially Lyndhurst way (Holly Grove to Peckham Road) have dreadful road surfaces for cycling.

- The junction between Lydhurst Grove and Lyndhurst Way is tight. Exiting LG there is poor visibility, especially for drivers (it can be hard to see cyclists who hug the curb heading N along LW). Turning into LG the junction/corner has very little room and drivers frequently cut the corner. As a cyclist exiting LG and turning right onto LW that can mean encountering cars driving at you in your lane. None of that will change - and frankly I can't see that there is any room to improve that situation.

- The intersection between Bellenden Road and Holly Grove is a bit of a shambles for pedestrians, who are definitely lowest in the pecking order, and not brilliant for cyclists. As a cyclist heading towards the shops on Bellenden Road I have to be confident to hold the centre of the lane to avoid cars trying to undertake me - I don't find that a big problem, but can cycle fast enough to avoid drivers growing too impatient. My feeling is that the junction could probably be improved by being redesigned without the wholesale new plans.

- The left turn from Bellenden Road onto Chadwick Road, heading north (away from the shops) is very tight and seems to be being made even tighter in the proposed plan, which shows the pavement being built out. That would be both a traffic pinch point and a real concern for all road users. As a pedestrian this junction can be hard to navigate safely because road traffic converges from three directions. In the proposed plans, I would like to see a pedestrian crossing across Chadwick road, between Bellenden Road and Lyndhurst Way.

- The current gyratory suffers from two problems in my opinion: relatively high driving speeds and cyclists needing to use (including cross into) the right hand lane. The latter is problematic because of speed differentials between cyclists and drivers. The two-way layout may be one solution, but I wonder if there are alternatives that focus on reducing driving speeds?

- The worst part of Bellenden Road from a traffic and road user point of view is the section past the shops, which these plans leave unaddressed. I wonder if there would be scope for moving the short stay park and shop bays into side streets, and making this stretch much less dominated by parking and traffic, improving visibility, reducing congestion - perhaps with a 10mph section?

On balance I find myself coming down in favour of the proposed plans. That said, I would like to hear from the council why the gyratory was introduced in the first place, how the proposed plans won't reintroduce things that were wrong before, and what they intend to do about the section of Bellenden Road past the shops.

GM

[wulfhound]

Children cycling to Harris school I somehow cannot see that happening.

Why not..?

[first mate]

wulfhound Wrote:

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> > Children cycling to Harris school I somehow

> cannot see that happening.

>

>

> Why not..?

Forgive me if I also share this doubt. On warm, balmy days I am sure a fair few will cycle, but rsiny days, cold days? Not convinced at all. This does seem like more needless meddling.

[davidk]

I support the plans.

The current gyratory is uncomfortable and intimidating to cycle and walk around. As with most one way systems, motor vehicle speeds are far too high. According to Southwark, the stretch that is being closed and turned into a cycle track has the highest speeds in the area, so I am glad that is being tackled.

Ultimately this will only work as part of a coherent route so Southwark will also need to tackle the speed and volumes of traffic on Lyndhurst way and do something about the blockage further up Bellenden Rd outside the shops.

[Charles Notice]

I oppose these plans as I feel that the current road system works very well.

In my opinion I do not find the gyratory uncomfortable or intimidating when I walk, cycle or drive. If the current

setup is used correctly it is 100% safe.

Modifying the crossing the points would be be useful at Holly Grove/Bellenden, Bellenden/Chadwick Road although if used correctly they work well

I do not find the speeds too high, unfortunately the cycle brigade would find speeds too high even if traffic was stationary.

As many have asked on this please produce figures to support any accidents that render this system dangerous.

There have been no accidents in my memory going back to 1989 when it was set up.

I dare anyone car or cyclist to try and speed on Lyndhurst Way with all the speed bumps and parked traffic as to blockages on Bellenden Road outside the shops this is more to do with selfishness than anything.

Patience and common sense seems to be lacking in some drivers and cyclist these days.

The road system works and it appears some people want to introduce the chaos that Loughborough Junction produced to satisfy their own personal wishes not the local area requirement.

If Southwark is so keen to grab this money on offer please find something that really needs it not destroy something that works and has worked for very long time.

I cannot believe the stretch that is proposed to be closed has the highest speeds in the area, still have they produced any figures to support this, dates speeds etc etc. Perhaps I have been walking round it with my eyes closed all these years.

If it works leave it. Basically this remodeling has only appeared since Bellenden Road became Bellenden Village

It is still the same road it has always been. I walked round it a moment ago it was like a ghost town.

Doubt if Southwark would use such a period to ramp there stats.

[ed_pete]

OK - I'll have to agree to differ with those that feel it is unsafe for cyclists. As I said above I use this route most days in each direction and never have a problem with the speed of other vehicles - there are a number of quite vicious speed humps to slow the traffic down. I think the issue should be tackled differently in this instance.

Realistically it's never going to be the case that all of London's roads have dedicated cycle paths so that you can get from A to B without avoiding vehicular traffic. I would prefer that money was put into training new or nervous cyclists to ride safely and confidently on the existing road infrastructure. I know that schemes already exist for this but they should be given more investment and more publicity. How about having "cycle leaders" on popular routes. They could be used to lead groups of less confident cyclists on a route into and out of town, maybe for a week or two by which time I think one should be ready to go it alone.

I am not against changing the road infrastructure to make cycling safer just that in this instance I think the money could be better spent.

[Earl Aelfheah]

What would make the biggest single difference for lot's of cyclists already using this route daily, is a safer way to cross Peckham Road between Kelly Avenue and Lyndhurst Way.