Thoughts about the forum in 2016

[bodsier]

Rather than respond to an existing thread, I thought I would just point out why some people on the forum take umbrage with some of the language used, when discussing issues of race and culture.

It is often considered to be irrelevant when someone addresses the language used when describing people (often of African/Caribbean descent). However often there is a high chance of the description being inaccurate, ie an African can be white or black, or have an Asian appearance, so 'African Appearance' cannot describe a person particularly someone with a london accent.

Often challenges to the language used is seen as a diversion from the issue, as an 'unnecessary comment' that is purely inflammatory rather than helpful, or worse the dreaded 'pc' .

What might be more helpful, is if the points raised, were seen as interesting, perhaps even important, as they are a perspective that you may not have considered. Language highlights a subconscious thought process that is so often overlooked. If we are all potential members of a jury, how then, might our unconscious thoughts play out? If we just legitimise our thoughts based on the number of people that agree with us, rather than analyse the points raised by those that don't, How do we Empathise outside the privileges of our own perspective?

This is with regard to many issues not just race, also class and gender. None of us benefit from 'Divide & Rule'

I hope the new year does bring more reasoned debate, a listening ear, or an agreement to disagree.

There are so many positives with regard to this forum, I am hopeful we can extend it a little more.

Wishing everyone a restful joyful holiday, be happy in 2016

[WorkingMummy]

I find this really helpful and would welcome comment on any unintentional blunder of my own, especially if expressed as reasonably as this.

It would really help, when someone pointed out that a particular use of language is problematic, if none of us automatically read that as an accusation of racisim/sexism or any other kind of bigatory. If it's seen and accepted as information and perspective sharing, it doesn't need to be inflammatory.

Thanks Bodsier.

[Jeremy]

But black people are if African descent! So a valid (albeit broad) description of ethnicity. Some black people prefer the word 'African' and dislike the word 'black'.

A white South African is not of African heritage/ethnicity.

[KidKruger]

Possibly reasonable aspirations in early posts, but nowt will actually change for 2016 or any other year.

The slogans will continue to be used becUse they are cheap, easy and lazy to apply.

I'm a confirmed racist, sexist, holocaust denier so far !

[Louisa]

I'm a confirmed classist and foodist. Even if I put on an al a carte buffet for my middle class neighbours I can't see that label shifting.

Louisa.

[KidKruger]

Oh Louisa, we have our cross to bear each of us, best we stride on, our chins up, an eye on the better place we know this world can be.

[WorkingMummy]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But black people are if African descent! So a

> valid (albeit broad) description of ethnicity.

> Some black people prefer the word 'African' and

> dislike the word 'black'.

>

> A white South African is not of African

> heritage/ethnicity.

All valid points. But the big point is that anyone should be able to say "ouch" over a particular label without being read as being insulting/implying that the other person is racist, or in any way in the wrong.

It's not about right or wrong, but perspective and willingness to address accidental, blameless upset.

[Loz]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A white South African is not of African heritage/ethnicity.

Ethnicity I could possibly agree with at a push, but heritage? Are you saying that generations from nearly four centuries of white Saffers do not have a heritage in Africa? That the generations in the 70 or so years from the Windrush do not have a heritage in the UK? How about people we would today consider 'West Indian'? Non-native US people (including, of course, blacks)? Canadians/Australians?

[Jeremy]

Depends what you mean by "heritage". Culturally, yeah of course they do.

My point was that "black" is kind of synonymous with "of African origin". Just as white is synonymous with "of European origin". So I don't get the problem. Would you mind being described as "of European appearance?"

[Blah Blah]

Except mitochondrial DNA says was are all out of Africa.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

In that case we are all African since we all originated from Africa.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

And no, the black people I know don't think black means African, they see themselves different to Africans since they have their own culture . I'm half black by the way . The Black being West Indies.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Unless someone is intending to offend, sometimes it's better to be generous and not to take offence. It feels sometimes that the outrage reflex is getting a little overactive online.

[WorkingMummy]

But Bodsier has not shown any sign of taking offence. And the OP was generous and did not make any accusation against anyone or put anyone in the wrong. All that is being requested, is the opportunity to share perspective on what, from time-to-time, may be a use of language, which accidentally, unknowingly, prompts discomfort of some kind in others who are different from you. Bodsier is asking, wouldn't we all like to know when this occurs, and understand each other's perspective? And the implication so far from some of the responses seems to be, "Thanks but no. Because I am right." As I said, no one is saying anyone is wrong.

As for Jeremy's very reasonable question, "Would you mind being described as being of European appearance?" I feel that this too, misses the point. For several reasons. But most of all because a white European living in London feeling fine with that label does not illegitimise the response of a black person living in London who feels uncomfortable with being described as looking African. In fact, one black Londonder not minding the "African" description does not invalidate another black Londoner not liking that.

Can we really not express "not liking" something without causing a big ruckus?

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Personally I think people should stop trying to be 'TOO' PC.

I took no offence to the original post at all .

The world is huge and it's very difficult to be accurate as to someone's ethnicity so the majority of us will take a guess . It might not be accurate but it does narrow it down .

I get asked if I'm from Brazil etc , do I take offence ? No as I don't expect people to know and no way would I take offence if someone said I'm black/Brazilian/Cuban/mixed/ Mexican etc with a London accent .

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I have friends from Vietnam who gets mistaken for Chinese , I have Russian friends who are asked if they are Polish and so on ... It's just so easy and innocent to do .

It's not a crime .

[Jeremy]

It's a fine line. If a group of people generally find something offensive or uncomfortable then as a society we need to listen to that. For me that doesn't mean that every time someone cries "that's offensive", they deserve to be taken seriously.

[Seabag]

I suggest a listen to Jay Rayner on BBC Radio 4 yesterday

His broadcast on the pig has some resonance here

http://bbc.in/1OdelPm

Oink!

[nxjen]

I've been mistaken for Australian in the States. Outrageous.

[Alan Medic]

They've heard of Australia there?

[Sue]

I think if somebody is trying to describe someone they have seen, for example (on this forum just before Christmas) somebody who was hitting a child, it's about doing their best to word that description in a way which most (?) people will relate to - and most importantly, in a way which may enable somebody to be able to identify that person.

Whilst I completely understand what bodsier is saying, and it's good in most circumstances to try to be as accurate as possible and to take sensitivities into account, sometimes time is of the essence.

And that may mean that somebody is offended by the description used.

I think it's very difficult, but unless there's a deliberate intention to offend, sometimes it might be better just to let it be?

As a white woman, I realise that it's easy for me to say that, however.

[tomskip]

I found all the chatter about appearance/race and culture on that thread somehow rather offensive, in the light of the fact that we were discussing a young child being hit around the head and face by her father and pleading with him to let her go to school! THAT was the main point of the thread. I sincerely hope someone reading knew who he was and that the poor girl has not been suffering more physical abuse while the EDF was fretting about the niceties of how to describe a violent thuggish criminal.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

tomskip Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I found all the chatter about appearance/race and

> culture on that thread somehow rather offensive,

> in the light of the fact that we were discussing a

> young child being hit around the head and face by

> her father and pleading with him to let her go to

> school! THAT was the main point of the thread. I

> sincerely hope someone reading knew who he was and

> that the poor girl has not been suffering more

> physical abuse while the EDF was fretting about

> the niceties of how to describe a violent thuggish

> criminal.

Hear ! Hear ! But to be honest, it's the EDF and most threads do get ruined by the PC police who have to be 'extra'.

[bodsier]

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> tomskip Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I found all the chatter about appearance/race

> and

> > culture on that thread somehow rather

> offensive,

> > in the light of the fact that we were discussing

> a

> > young child being hit around the head and face

> by

> > her father and pleading with him to let her go

> to

> > school! THAT was the main point of the thread.

> I

> > sincerely hope someone reading knew who he was

> and

> > that the poor girl has not been suffering more

> > physical abuse while the EDF was fretting about

> > the niceties of how to describe a violent

> thuggish

> > criminal.

>

>

> Hear ! Hear ! But to be honest, it's the EDF and

> most threads do get ruined by the PC police who

> have to be 'extra'.

Have you diverted to that thread because you felt more comfortable?

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I have no idea what you mean Bodsier.