Cat killed by dog on Oakhurst Grove - 22 November (Lounged)

[Meredith]

A staffordshire bull terrier who was being walked by its owner - off the lead - tore a cat apart this morning. The owner had no control of the dog. The police were called but said 'there was no offence to charge'.

[moonshadow]

That's awful. Do we know whose cat it was? There are so many on our road. I've always thought it was a bit of a haven for cats around here but perhaps not.

My condolences to whose ever it was.

[thexwinglessxbird]

The police fob us off some of the time I'm afraid. There are acts / laws which mean they should take action, but often they seem not to 'know' about them, and you have to persue them to take it seriously.....

eg ? Town Police Clauses Act 1847 (outside London) and Metropolitan Police Act 1839 (London)

These Acts make it an offence to allow an unmuzzled, ferocious dog to be left at large, or for a person to set on or to urge any dog attack, worry or put in fear any person or animal in the street.

? Dogs Act 1871

Under this Act, a court may, upon complaint that a dog is dangerous and not kept under proper control, order the owner to keep him under proper control or to be destroyed.

If a dog is dangerously out of control in a public place, or a private place where it is not permitted to be, the owner; and if different, the person for the time being in charge of the dog, is guilty of an offence.

"A dog shall be regarded as dangerously out of control on any occasion on which there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person, whether or not it actually does so."

In the case of Briscoe -v- Shattock QBD 12 October 1998 it was held that a dog could be considered "dangerous" and "not kept under proper control" within the meaning of Section 2 of the Dogs Act 1871, even if the only danger shown was to other dogs, and not to humans. Being dangerous reflected the dog's disposition not his acts.

This applies to any dog, of any breed. The quote from the Act above means that any dog which is a bit lively might commit an offence if not kept under control - this could be your dog too! For example, we understand a farmer was prosecuted and fined under this section of the Act when his aggressive dogs intimidated walkers on a public footpath, even though the dogs were on private land and behind a fence (sorry, no reference to this case).

I know people who have (eventually) had some success by telling the police the relevant act they should be acting under / going to superiors.

Getting the local dog warden onside can help as well.

Good luck

[thexwinglessxbird]

It is sad to hear that this has happened once again (aparently many times, but one particular incident had been noted on the boards).

Although you cannot restrict your cats whereabouts, you can help prevent them from lurking around the busy streets, the fronts of houses. I would suggest cat owners to let them out through the back, never the front & hope they get used to this. They are less likely to come in contact with dogs, humans & cars.

I'd be distraught if this happened to my cat. We must not let these things go without a fight! Irresponsible owners must be punished.

[LibraCarr]

Hi,

It may be of interest to note that a male regularly lets a dog of similar appearance loose in the Grove. This dog relieved itself a few day's ago and the person left the mess on the pavement. This person then very kindly told me that I had walked in it!

A number of incidents have happened over the last week, I am aware that the RSPCA attended a address in the Grove in relation to a dog. It may be the same address.

As for letting your cats out only from the back of the house, I saw someone throwing a cola style plastic 2ltr bottle at a cat that was just trying to get in to its home. This was thrown from the first floor and if it hit the cat on the head would cause severe concussion if not death, the person laughed. This incident was at the back of the house.

After I was told of the above incident I felt very sick, and I feel very sad for the owner as this would have been a horrific way to end a animals life.

I am of the belief that we should be locking up the perpetrator and not the animals.

Regards,

Libra Carr.

[Alex K]

Meredith, I do hope that you are in a position to follow up the matter, through the RSPCA perhaps, with the police -- using the suggestions by winglessbird? If you elect to carry things forward, please let us know how they develop.

Our cat Mike lives indoors, with an occasional saunter (under observation) out into a garden; we cherish her and want to keep her safe -- but thugs dump their dogs over garden fences, in Camberwell at least, to enjoy watching carnage. See James Delingpole's SPECTATOR column a few weeks back. To imagine Mike being savaged -- Mike, who has never had a cross word spoken to her -- distresses me greatly. And I am so, so sorry that any cat came to such an end, and that you had to watch it happen.

[Huggers]

surely this guy was breaking the law by having a dog off lead in the street and could be done for that?

[Y'man]

Going back to The Eighties, a friend of mine had a Staffordshire Terrier that 'turned' at 2 years old. It bit the head off of a Yorkshire Terrier on Dawsons Heights and had to be destroyed. Since the deaths of three toddlers in the past five years from Pitbull attacks there are stringent rules about the keeping of some types of dog, Staffys being one of them. If the police refuse to act on this they should be chased and made to. As much as I like all Bully breeds, a wrong'un is a bad dog to have around the area.

[first mate]

Y'man,

There are no rules with regard to owning a pure Stafford. Pure Pit bulls or Pit bull crosses are illegal under the Dangerous Dogs Act, unless registered,neutered, muzzled and under control at all times. Proving a dog is a Pit bull type as opposed to a Stafford is hard to do.

My condolences to the cat owner. Truly awful. If the same dog is regularly off lead and has killed other cats it may be possible to bring some legal action on the grounds that it is not under control, otherwise there are grounds in civil law.

[cathg]

Surely this is similar to the case in the news last week of a dog off the leash attacking a blind woman's dog which made the news and prompted a search for the owner?

[first mate]

cathg,

Not really. The case where the guide dog was attacked clearly endangered the the blind lady- though thankfully she was not hurt; the point is she could have been, there are clear grounds for a criminal prosecution under the Dangerous Dogs Act. In the case of the cat being killed: unless a human, present at the attack on the cat, felt themselves to be endangered by the dog, then the DDA is of little use. I believe there is other civil legislation where the dog owner could be prosecuted for their dog not being under control in a public place- but it is tricky.

[thexwinglessxbird]

LibraCarr Wrote:

> As for letting your cats out only from the back of

> the house, I saw someone throwing a cola style

> plastic 2ltr bottle at a cat that was just trying

> to get in to its home. This was thrown from the

> first floor and if it hit the cat on the head

> would cause severe concussion if not death, the

> person laughed. This incident was at the back of

> the house.

So for every cat to avoid this one idiot, you would suggest they let their cats out onto a busy road, where they are most likely to come in contact with people, dogs & ultimately get run over? ...Let's weigh it up here, LibraCarr.

You can contact the East Dulwich Safer Neighbourhoods Team & express your opinion on the matter. http://www.met.police.uk/teams/southwark/eastdulwich/index.php

The only way to possibly make a clear law against incidents like this, is to stand up & fight back.

Meredith, how did you find out this information? Were you there or is it somebody you know?

[Meredith]

The RSPCA are now involved. They have collected the cats body as evidence.

Unfortunately, I saw it. I wish I hadn't.

The police were able to contact the owner as the cat had a id tag. The cat was called Ollie and he was 2 years old. It was a brutal attack and the attitude of the young men involved was that - it was natural for dogs to kill cats, it's their nature. The not very helpful police officer agreed - but admitted that she had never heard of a dog actually catching a cat and killing it.

I tried to speak to the LA today - but got an unhelpful message back telling me to call the police. The owner of the cat has had a more helpful response from the LA, someone is going to come and speak to her about the incident.

I am concerned as the owner has no control over the dog and it could have been a child.

[LibraCarr]

Dear thexwinglessxbird,

I think that you toatally missed the point, without getting to patronising. Sorry I cannot even think why I am wasting my time posting a message to you.

Goodbye.

[ianr]

Meredith Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The not very helpful police officer agreed

> - but admitted that she had never heard of a dog

> actually catching a cat and killing it.

You saw the dog chasing the cat? Did anything seem to trigger it?

[Alex K]

As submitted through the complaint form at the website recommended by thexwinglessxbird:

"This problem is at second hand.

"According to a narrative posted on an internet community forum

"http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,371722

"a policewoman neglected to take action when a dog, not muzzled or on a lead, savaged and killed a cat, saying that nothing wrong had occurred.

"For a dog not to be under control and for its owners thereby to kill a cat -- surely many ordinances empower a police officer to take action.

"That a policewoman should shrug at, turn a blind eye to, condone, connive in such brutality sickens me."

Perhaps something will come of the complaint, the RSPCA involvement. I hope so.

[Meredith]

No I didn't see the dog chasing the cat. I just saw the cat dead in the dog's mouth - no one could get the dog to let go of the cat. It was really a horrible incident. It took a long time to get the dog to let go. The dog's owner and the young boys with him just said it was normal behaviour for a dog.

Very sorry to hear about your cat cactus

[cactus]

What a dreadful incident to witness, poor cat and poor owner.

Our cat Billy was killed on our front doorstep two years ago by a French Mastiff. The owner told us that his dog was on a strong leash, which broke when it caught sight of our cat and made a dash towards it. I think cats can usually

dart out of the way, but ours was cornered in the small front garden. The dog's owner tried to intervene,

but it was too late, but then he did the decent thing and ran to the local vet for help. The vet came straight

away but poor Billy had died from horrendous abdominal injuries.

I have mixed feelings about the incident, the dog's owner was deeply shocked and he had tried to help, but

I still wonder why some people keep such powerful dogs which can barely be controlled and are clearly

dangerous towards other animals and maybe people. They should always be walked on a lead and/or muzzled.

[ianr]

I suspect the most the RSPCA could do, if they think there's any mileage in the application, is to seek a magistrates court order to the owner to keep the dog under proper control.

Huggers> surely this guy was breaking the law by having a dog off lead in the street and could be done for that?

A Dogs on Leads Order http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20061059.htm applies to a specified area. The only mention I can find of one on the Southwark website refers to the Aylesbury Estate only http://www.southwark.gov.uk/Public/NewsArticle.aspx?articleId=37314.

[bonniebird]

Poor cats:'( Poor owners:'( These thugs need prosecuting, its not good enough.

[dulwichbloke]

I'm very sorry to hear about that - how awful.

Do you know where the dog owners live? It's ridiculous for the police to say there's no offence.

My cats go worryingly close to where that happened... if I saw that happening to one of mine, Even though its not the dog's fault, I'm afraid I would kill the dog if I had a spade handy. It would be tempting to sort the thug owners out as well.

[Alex K]

A response, of sorts:

From: [email protected] [[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] [[email protected]]

Sent: 24 November 2009 11:16

To: Alex K

Subject: Your 23 November email : dog savagery e-reported : Contact us - Send us praise or complaints c01-00003990

We acknowledge your 23 November email in connexion with an internet-reported dog attack issue and related alleged Met inactivity.

Your email was sent to the local borough command for review and for response to you directly. The direct response is scheduled to be made to you within ten calendar days of 23 November.

Regards

Peter Barra

Citizen Focus Policing Programme l TPHQ l Metropolitan Police Service

MetPhone : 63169 I Telephone : 0207 230 3169 l Mobile 07802 I Address Room 822, New Scotland Yard, 10 The Broadway, London SW1H 0BG

[intexasatthe moment]

Good work ,Alex !

[thexwinglessxbird]

Thank you, Alex K! The more people bring this up, the more police will be aware & hopefully pass the message on. They nee to be aware that there are laws against this kind of stuff... I don't know why it takes them 30 days to respond though!

Anyhoo, here's the reply I got

Dear resident, Thank you for your email sent via the Territorial Policing mailbox. I am sorry that you feel this way about East Dulwich but hopefully I can offer some reassurance in the fact that we as a police team are bringing Operation BARK to this area. This is a scheme which arranges for RSCPA and police officers to carry out joint patrols. We can certainly referany issues of animals being molested by dogs or worse to the RSPCA and we will seek to bring prosecutions under the Animal Welfare Act or the Dangerous Dogs Act if it is a human. Please free to email the team directly through [email protected] Regards Duncan Jackson

[Alex K]

And already: A further response, with officer ID. See below.

Thexwinglessxbird, any thanks should go to you for providing the link that I followed. I must say that this speed and responsiveness from the police surprise and impress me.

From: [email protected] [[email protected]]

Sent: 24 November 2009 16:28

To: Alex K

Subject: Ref 2384

Dear Alex K

I am the Citizen Focus Inspector for Southwark Police. As part of my remit I have had sight of your communication to the Central Police Confidence Team.

The officer, 827MD, has been identified and I am in the process of communicating with her line managers and responsible staff who were on duty at the time of this incident which I understand to be around 9.47am on Sunday 22nd November 2009. I will also speak with the officer concerned.

At this time please consider me as your local point of contact regarding Southwark Police and actions taken by our staff. My contact details are shown below and I will respond further by E mail as soon as I have anything further to communicate.

Yours Sincerely

Chris Lewis

_______________

Citizen Focus Inspector

Southwark Police Station -MD

323 Borough High Street

London SE1 1JL

w0207 232 6653 ext 26653 m07765 194053

[email protected]