Man hitting & shouting at child on Camberwell Grove, Fri morning 18 Dec

[binkylilyput]

I don't see how that could be considered a big leap. If people had taken note of the signs and done something about it as cinders has then suffering could have been stopped and her death prevented. If this is how this father behaves in public then behind closed doors is unlikely to be like the Waltons. FGM is also culturally relevant but unacceptable nonetheless.

I agree with you cinders that the emphasis should be on this father being identified so that official bodies can assess and draw their own conclusions about the nature of his behaviour and what intervention is appropriate

[Otta]

binkylilyput Wrote:

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> I don't see how that could be considered a big

> leap. If people had taken note of the signs and

> done something about it as cinders has then

> suffering could have been stopped and her death

> prevented.

Totally different set of circumstances. The point is that a lot of abusers probably appear like ideal parents when out in public.

Anyway, the OP has now told us that the bloke has a London accent, so the whole cultural argument is irrelevant (although strongly disagree with Huggers that it's all bollocks - and I am from a social care background).

cinders Wrote:

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> There was nothing to suggest this

> was anything to do with culture and to be honest

> can we just focus on finding this bastard instead

> of even insinuating there may be a good reason for

> it.

1. NO ONE has even remotely insinuated that there is a "good reason" for this behaviour.

2. You've called the police, and you've written your OP. Unless you're thinking of forming some sort of search party*, there is nothing more to be done here. People are just discussing the subject.

* Please don't do that.

[Otta]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> its about humanity - people love their children

> the same the world over - why anyone thinks

> hitting them is a good way to demonstrate love is

> beyond me.

I very much doubt that anyone thinks that hitting their kids is demonstrating love. But some cultures are A LOT harsher to their kids than we are. But in terms of abuse and sick people hurting kids, look at the human pond scum that hurt and killed Peter Connelly (baby P), white English home grown scum.

[Alex K]

alice Wrote:

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> child abuse is culture free. if not show me

> evidence to disprove that.

Oh, for Heaven's sake. The thread, before you contributed to it, was attempting to address the point that the definition of child abuse, the understanding of what constitutes child abuse, is highly culture-dependent.

"Child abuse is culture free." This, or that, or the other thing is what Alice says it is and everyone else, with their opinions, can go hang. Oh, dear.

[Grok]

I consider feeding junk food to kids is abuse. I also think that some kids need a slap around the legs on occasion to halt unacceptable behaviour. I also think that the OP take on what she saw is very subjective. I wonder if things wouldve gone this far had the father not been black African in appearance but white.

[tiddles]

I think this is irrelevant Grok. She (he) was simply describing the person and what they were doing (perceived by many to be well out of order)

[Angelina]

subjective - maybe

tainted by our own values - probably

racial / cultural differences? not a chance. This is UK law and values and child abuse is defined by emotional abuse, violence, witness to violence....

It's not acceptable - whether you think it's ok personally or not.

Clearly a distraught child is something we should all care about. Not find reasons they might have deserved it - or mitigating circumstances (perpetraor was of any particular race/ culture).

[fizzmoll]

The United Nations Convention on the rights of the child (UNCRC):

http://www.unicef.org.uk/Documents/Publications/Child_friendly_CRC_summary_final.pdf

That's the starting point, right there.

[tomskip]

Penguin's post was irrelevant and a thread de-railer. I hope the opening post has rung bells with someone and that that poor child (or children) can be helped.

[tomskip]

And "I consider feeding junk food to kids is abuse" - for heaven's sake! Read the op, read the actual words he/or she posted and try to understand them. Giving a kid the occasional McDonald's isn't in the same league!

[Grok]

Quite clearly the child in question has attended school at some stage, and I would hope that if any abuse is going on then signs of this would have been picked up and acted on appropriately.

Allowing young children to get fat is abuse and not an occasional burger treat.

I believe the OP did the right thing based on her subjective view of the incident.

Subjecting children to war is abuse but how many wanted Syria bombed. Sorry off topic. No one in their right mind would condone child abuse but dismissing cultural differences on evidence of a subjevtive description is dangerous also.

[Jacbuc]

Dear Cinders, I have sent you a PM

[Blah Blah]

How this thread has deviated! There's very little subjective room for describing a grown man hitting the back of a child's head imo. How else could the OP have described that? And that the child was crying as he did it. Not really much room for interpretation there either.

[civilservant]

the cultural norms argument is so off the mark - Penguin is usually a reasoned and reasonable commentator that i am truly surprised at his post

in any culture, a grown man hitting a child is considered unacceptable, whether it happens in Glasgow or Ghana or Gloucester. what might vary is whether people consider it their business to intervene.

I note that the OP comments that none of the people passing intervened to help the child. Does that imply that this man's behaviour is an ED cultural norm?

I do hope this man and child have been identified and the social services have been involved.

[Grok]

Plenty of room.

I am appealing for any help with finding a man who is clearly physically and mentally abusing his child.

Is the OP qualified to make these judgements? No.

They are African in appearance

What does an African look like? White or black African? What does an African look like compared to a west indian black man? Is the OP already making cultural conclusions?

He was shouting at his child (she looks between 8-10). Hitting her on the back, and back of her head. Swearing and shouting she wasn't going to school. She was screaming every time he hit her and saying she wanted to go to school please Daddy.

Who doesnt have to raise voice to kids sometimes? Hitting or pushing along? Smacking, slapping, punching? Tantrum screaming like all kids can or crying out in pain? Swearing bloody, flipping or other?

I reported this to the police this morning as soon as i'd walked past them.

Then the OP has done what she believes is the right thing so why come onto a public forum and potentially cause massive problems in the life of a possibly innocent man and maybe even get him bashed up on OP subjective views? What if OP is disgruntled ex being nasty and claim is false?

Yes I reported what they were wearing - didn't get a good look as it was all so fast.

So fast but OP is certain of all facts in OP even though happened so fast.

I think i have driven past them before, around Alleyns and at that time I also saw him shouting and hitting a child but then it looked like a very young boy. So either it was the same child or there's more than one.

So if OP has seen this before, which sounds exactly the same scenario but boy allegedly being hit instead of girl why was this not reported to police by OP at that time?

There were other parents with kids around so someone else must have heard and seen them.

Maybe they were not concerned? Maybe they reported it to police and did not need to come onto a public forum vigilante mode.

However, if you see a man hitting a child so hard, repeatedly, so that she cries out each time, he is dragging her along the street shouting obscenities,

Dragged along street? OP kid was being pushed along street.

I really don't care what 'culture' he thinks he is following. He is a child abuser and must be treated as so.

So why did this not apply to the "abuse" seen by OP previously?

The man was shouting (effing and blinding) to his daughter in a London accent. She had a London accent.

So the previous description of a black African was not needed, just a black man maybe?

They were not dressed in anything unusual.

What, like a fez? Traditional African wear?

There was nothing to suggest this was anything to do with culture

No? Maybe African culture in OP view. See above.

and to be honest can we just focus on finding this bastard instead of even insinuating there may be a good reason for it.

Bastard, more vigilante terminology. And swearing

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> How this thread has deviated! There's very little

> subjective room for describing a grown man hitting

> the back of a child's head imo. How else could the

> OP have described that? And that the child was

> crying as he did it. Not really much room for

> interpretation there either.

[Penguin68]

Penguin is usually a reasoned and reasonable commentator that i am truly surprised at his post

I am sorry, but any study of history will show that, even in the UK, cultural attitudes to domestic violence have changed dramatically over time. What was once acceptable (if not universally encouraged or lauded) in terms of parental violence towards children is now, and properly, seen as well beyond the pale. Cultural norms in some other societies are still in places where we were years ago. Remember that slavery is still acceptable in some parts of the world today (and sadly is still practiced, behind closed doors, by some visitors to the UK even now).

It is a perfectly reasonable philosophical position to be a cultural absolutist and say that where we now are is the only place to be, and that anyone who takes a different view is, and always must be ?wrong? ? but that is just one philosophical position. A multi-culturist approach suggests that there is a moral equivalence between different cultural norms and that to place one culture ?over? another is not correct.

I am closer to being a cultural absolutist than not, but I am not so blinkered as to assume that people who take a different philosophical position are inherently evil, even if I think they may be wrong.

Which does not excuse or condone behaviour taking place on our streets today which challenges our cultural norms (although in a 100 years time what we accept now on our streets may well be unacceptable to our successors).

The person as described doing this needs to be found, and perhaps the child placed into care or otherwise protected, but whether from someone who is bad, is mad (mentally disturbed, i.e. ill), or is different can only be discovered once he is found.

[Otta]

Hope the man doesn't see this thread and get angry, and beat his child for making him look bad in public.

That would be very unfortunate.

[tomskip]

And unlikely.

[Otta]

How do you know?

Unless you're him you don't.

[Otta]

But really I was just trying to show how ridiculous this thread has become.

[ED123]

cinders Wrote:

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> They were not dressed in anything unusual.

may I ask what you consider to be "unusual" dressed?

[Angelina]

This time of year, it's hard to say. It's becoming increasingly normal to wear silly jumpers.... So absolutely no idea what constitutes 'unusual'

[buddug]

Oh my. How this thread has deviated indeed. The OP had legitimate concerns about a child, full stop. There was no need for the cultural norms/devil's advocate brigade to stick their oar in to derail it. It was a cri de coeur, with the welfare and safety of the little girl at stake. This should have been everyone's concern. But sadly, no. And now it's deteriorated so much that we have this ridiculous nit-picking reply by ED123 to the OP's last comment that the pair were not unusually dressed: "May I ask what you consider to be 'unusually' dressed?", followed by a comment about silly Christmas jumpers. Shame on you. All this is classic trolling, hijacking the thread out of pure mischief. But, don't forget, there's an abused little girl at the heart of all this.

Do you know what. If I had a pound for every time normally intelligent and articulate people have told me they're terrified of posting anything on this forum no matter how innocuous due to the ensuing likely torrent of weirdness and criticism that inevitably follows from the usual suspects, I'd be rich. Of course, there has to be room for disagreement and contrary opinions, but in this thread it has finally reached the heights of madness.

I think it's time admin reined some of these people in, to be honest. I think hundreds of locals who would love to post their thoughts and observations don't because they are scared to because of this behaviour, which really amounts to nothing more than bullying.

[fizzmoll]

@Grok

> Who doesnt have to raise voice to kids sometimes? Hitting or pushing along? Smacking, slapping, punching?

In the part of the world where I am from, smacking, slapping or punching a child is illegal and the mere thought of this being somehow ok makes me feel thoroughly shocked and appalled. No, you mustn't ever smack, slap or punch a child. Ever.

[hellosailor]

yep, what buddug said..