Infant Homeopathic immunisations

[antijen]

http://www.emotionalhealthcentre.com/Design/Assets/archive/Essential%20Focus%20Newsletter%20Issue%2013b.pdf

Mumbo Jumbo??

[randomv]

Antijen - that's a great link you posted. A quick look on the index page led me to this page on the same site: http://www.whale.to/b/holocaust_revisionism.html I'd rather make my child healthcare decisons based on scientific fact than the opinions of holocaust deniers..

HeidiHi, the difference between the US and the UK is that they pay their healthcare provider so they will get what they want, irrespective of whether it is the best or most effective treatment. In fact, the hospital probably makes more money from 5 separate shots so it's in their interests to give parents that choice. It does seem that you have a particular concern with regards to immune system but have you found any evidence that traditional vaccinations, including MMR pose a risk?

Every time we take our children to the doctor's surgery we are exposing them to the risk of catching something (including some of the illnesses we can vaccinate against). So if one accepts that vaccines have been subject to rigorous and sustained testing programs and that they have been scientifically proven to be safe, then surely one must also accept that in opting for 5 separate injections that one is actually putting their child at a greater risk of contracting an illness?

Interesting that because someone has assessed the hard evidence to be conclusive on either side of the debate that they are deemed narrow minded? As it happens I am someone who is very much open to many forms of alternative therapy. It just so happens that in the case of homeopathy there is no evidence to support any of it's claims and that in the case of MMR and other vaccinations there is a heap of evidence to suggest that they are effective and safe. Yes elements of the pharmaceutical industry are greedy scum, but it is among the most tightly regulated industries in the world. At the end of the day, you can research the methods, means, results, flaws etc of all published medical testing whereas homeopathy for example is shrouded in secrecy.

[antijen]

As I have already said I put up info about other alternatives, I myself used herbs. The website you talk about (above) I googled so had no idea of there opinions on the holocaust, but can understand how certain groups are using issues , if thats whats happening, to get support from people who are up against decisions our goverment makes, which we feel may be taken out our hands.

[antijen]

http://public-healthcare-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/swine_flu_vaccine_why_people_are_reluctant

Tightly regulated?? lots of people do not agree.

[randomv]

antijen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> http://www.emotionalhealthcentre.com/Design/Assets

> /archive/Essential%20Focus%20Newsletter%20Issue%20

> 13b.pdf

>

> Mumbo Jumbo??

YES!!! that is just a series of claims with no referenced information to back itself up!!

Here is what I found on the large Danish study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1124634/

Since you are obviously not going to read the article let me share this sentance with you: "In a commentary accompanying the study, which was published in the , Dr Edward Campion, senior deputy editor, wrote, ?This careful and convincing study shows that there is no association between autism and MMR vaccination.?

Antijen, I'm interested to know why the best you can do to back up your claims is to google and post links to random sites? More intersted to wonder why anyone should believe anything a bunch of holocaust deniers have to say? Clearly these are people who are incapable of taking ANY form of evidence and reaching any sort of sensible conclusion.

I believe I have posted useful, referenced and reviewed information that I hope will be of use to the OP in their decision. I don't think it's appropriate to turn this into some sort of anti-government debate so I'm out of this thread.

[????]

This thread is about 'standard jabs' not swine flu innoculations is it not? I suspect that there is some fear about swine-flu jabs (although personally I think that's misguided too).

BUT this is about standard innoculations that have vastly reduced the danger of a whole host of diseases which killed and disabled infants for generations - and still do in countries where vaccine and innoculation aren't as universally applied. What's the herbal prevention for Polio? What is homeopathies answer for TB? Where are the rigourous test applied to these?

[plimsoul]

i'm happy to read that all those that vaccinate their children, clearly blinded by a government conspiracy fueled by profit margins of pharmaceutical firms, are helping all those that chose not to vaccinate (still in the minority) by ensuring that their children are not surrounded with as many germs as measles etc...i'm happy to know that i made all your consciences feel better whilst exposing my children to an evil western fabrication. that would make me the dunce in the room for feeling a certain notion of responsibility towards other children in the world. unless there are individual medical concerns in which case...

heidi hi: i know that the choice does exist to have the jabs separately, but i'm pretty sure you will only have the private option unless there are very strong medical grounds.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I have checked online on the NHS website and it says the jabs cannot be offered separately and any private clinic offering the jabs as singles are not licensed, well I am not going to go to a clinic that is not licensed! My son had his first jabs and reacted badly, so I am just wary about the next lot and the third lot which is three injections...

So is Skip talking about Homeopathy to limit the reaction to the jabs or Homeopathy instead of the jabs?

[plimsoul]

i think to limit.

blimey, how worrying, unlicensed clinics. so does this mean that all parents who wanted the sequence of shots couldn't even go to a private guy down harley street? i have never had to go beyond the NHS for anything and i am always shocked to read about how standard unlicensed practice is, but for jabs?? i don't know why but i find that shocking.

good luck, i hope that you find a solution for you but i highly recommend being protected, however square, unquestioning etc... that point of view may be. best wishes.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

This is from the NHS website:

There is no source of single licensed vaccines in this country and those that are being offered privately are unlicensed - which means that there is no British testing on their safety and efficacy.

http://www.immunisation.nhs.uk

That is what I mean about choices. I know of people going to France in order to get the jabs as singles for their babies.

I can understand people thinking they are crazy, we get the jabs for free on the NHS and so on but the point is, people like choices, there will always be people who don't want to be told what and how to do things and there will be people who are dubious about the vaccines and therefore will want an alternative and an option should be offered so that parents do not opt out altogether thus leaving their children at risk.

I don't see anything wrong with using homeopathy before the immunisations in order to lessen the reactions to them, people on here might not believe in it but thousands do and if they say it works for them, who are we to disapprove that? After all how many of us have had drugs that have been tested in labs and issued to us by our GPs that has not worked on us? I know I have! So if someone wants to use herbals, homeopathy to try and lessen the reactions of their jabs then good for them! Others use Calpol, some use homeopathy.

[antijen]

plimsoul, what I have put up was not intended to make anyone feel guilt about the choices they've made, as a mother I absolutely know how difficult these choices are, but I cannot accept some posters views that because of my decision I am putting others at risk. ???? your history of the vaccines and mine are very different, its not difficult to find both sides, as I'm sure you can do. Of all the conflicting info I have heard over the years, the decision I made was right for me, this brought with it a responsibility for my own health, and an individually different perspective for each of my children.

[plimsoul]

aha, i see heidi hi. is there anyway of finding out if the jabs on offer on the continent are the same as those offered at the unlicensed clinic. at which point you don't have to leave the country but could have the jabs. i had images of back street alleys, not just that these were drugs available on the continent.

but i still don't understand how an 'unlicensed' organisation/practice can offer medication. i am clearly suffering of brain mush at work ... does it mean that you have no recourse if something goes wrong? sorry, discussion of unlicensed clinics is clearly off topic and i shall stop.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

There is supposed to be a loophole that allows these clinic to sell unlicensed medication but I presume there would be no fall back if anything goes wrong as the NHS does not hold any information on these private clinics and do not recommend them. A bit like someone setting up a clinic in Harley Street with no formal qualifications and offering cosmetic surgery and teeth bleaching!

[Polmoche]

Sorry but why should the government license these clinics just to offer people "choice" when they already have a system that seems to suit the majority? If you want to pursue your own course, go for it, but to expect the overstretched NHS to pay for that alternative in time, money and resources to license it is a bit rich. And to those who think that the NHS is in the pocket of drug companies, then what on earth do you think of these clinics that have sprung up to offer separate jabs? Surely not some fluffy altruitic organisation that is giving you the choice you seek--they are preying on parents fears and profiting from them too.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Polmoche, you are entitled to your views but at the same time, other parents are entitled to theirs. I didn't say the NHS should license anything, I said that these clinics are using unlicensed medication. These parents are paying their taxs for the NHS also, and if they want to pay extra to have the jabs as singles, or to space them out, they should be allowed.

[plimsoul]

to be fair, heidi hi was just responding to my questions. i gave my kids the one MMR offered to all kids, i stated my case earlier, but heidi hi was not saying that the NHS should do anything she was explaining to me how she understood unlicensed clinics can operate.

sorry, just thought that i'd clear that one up...

[josiebee]

HeidiHi Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There does not seems to be private clinic who

> offer the jabs separately. I have no problems

> paying for it, but according to the NHS website,

> these clinics are not licensed and so on. I want

> my son to have his jabs but at a pace that I feel

> comfortable with in order not to compromise his

> immune system since he might inherit a rubbish one

> like mine and I don't want it to trigger off

> psoriasis in him so I prefer to not overload his

> system but as I said, in the UK it does not look

> like we have any choices at all, that is my issue,

> we should have some choices.

I haven't read all these posts but I think you can get the MMR jabs separately from Dr Halvorsen at the Holborn Medical Centre.

[josiebee]

njc97 Wrote:

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> Antijen et al - immunisation should not be a

> personal choice. By not immunising your children,

> you put other children (even those who have been

> immunised) at risk. In fact you are more at risk

> being an immunised child in an area with

> insufficient rates of immunisation than an

> un-immunised child in an area with a high take-up.

> I don't mind if you are pro/anti-homeopathy but by

> anyone who takes the selfish decision to not

> immunise their children should understand the

> consquences.

Could you explain this a bit more? I don't exactly understand how if you have been immunised then you are

at risk in an area of low take up? Surely the whole idea of immunisation is to get rid of risk?

[josiebee]

antijen Wrote:

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> http://www.whale.to/vaccines/smallpox7.html

>

> Above link shows how vaccines cannot be separated

> with greed, control and scare. None of my children

> were vaccinated, none of my friends children who

> were, were affected by my choice, njc97; why if

> you believe that vaccinated children are protected

> would they be more at risk. I have no problem with

> people choosing to vaccinated there children and I

> do not believe the decision is taking lightly,

> ????, I believe there is a bigger choice than

> scientific and "mumbo jumbo", often put like this

> by people who are unable to have respect for other

> peoples decisions. randomv, I googled and found

> the book as it seems to have different alternative

> alongside homeopathy, I believe the goverment give

> out misleading info using scare tactics.

Anti-jen thank you for speaking out so bravely against immunisation I have researched the area a great deal after my daughter had a bad reaction to the BCG and have arrived at similar conclusions to you. I don't feel like taking on all these arguments but offer my full support to someone who does.

There is a reallly good website out there - for anyone else who is interested - it is called The Informed Parent

http://www.informedparent.co.uk/

I think basically they collect together various research findings and articles which are emerging on immunisations and make them accessible to people who are interested.

Thank you for speaking out.

[randomv]

Oh dearie me. I am really trying not to post further on this thread since it is getting ridiculous but seriously some of these posts are highly irresponsible. Is the best the anti-vaccine brigade can do to post some random links to websites that list a series of unsubstantiated claims? Incidentally, notice how many of these websites charge you for their apparently indispensible information..methinks that greed is not limited to the pharmaceuticals..

Open your eyes people!! If I put up a website claiming that a fork is a spoon, a cat is a tree and a car is a book it doesn't make it fact!! Let's see some real evidence for what you are saying - not a website put up by AN Other. Facts are deduced by careful analysis of a range of information, also taking into account any flaws there may be in the study, average incidence of certain outcomes etc etc.

Antijen et al, are not speaking out. I have taken the time to read your links, even to look further into them (with worrying consequences) whereas I can only assume you have not done the same with my evidence. So who is narrow-minded?

I would really urge anybody who is in any doubt to resist from making very serious decisions with regards their childs health from the information provided by holocaust deniers (did I mention the Aids deniers also on that site?) Isn't holocaust denial a criminal act?

[helena handbasket]

Sometimes there is a thread that you know you shouldn't pull, but you can't resist and do it anyway. Reading this is that thread this morning. I'm absolutely stunned.

There are people dying, right now, because they do not have access to the basic preventative medicine that we have. What a ridiculous, typical, middle class dilemma: we are so spoilt and whiny that we actually have the luxury of "deciding against" medical advances? Sure we all have choice, but when one states that not immunizing your own children has no impact on society at large, I know that I am no longer having a rational conversation and it's done.

People are going to France for separate jabs? Are you kidding me? Honestly, the world is going to hell in a ..........

[Polmoche]

You said it helena... As for people paying to have separate jabs, the NHS ultimately would have to put more time, money and resources to do this, this is what I mean by the NHS having to fund this, and as a tax-sponsored organisation they look for value for money. A tax-funded health care system is not about endless choice, it will always have constraints as there is not a limitless pool to fund every person's wants, especially when there is a perfectly suitable system already in place that suits the vast majority.

[DaveR]

I absolutely support the right of anybody to put their fingers in their ears and say, over and over again, "lalalalalala, I refuse to listen to reason", but where kids are involved I think they should be at least 18 before they are allowed to make their own bone-headed decisions on important issues like this.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Looks like this debate could go on and on and on....

[josiebee]

randomv Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Oh dearie me. I am really trying not to post

> further on this thread since it is getting

> ridiculous but seriously some of these posts are

> highly irresponsible. Is the best the

> anti-vaccine brigade can do to post some random

> links to websites that list a series of

> unsubstantiated claims? Incidentally, notice how

> many of these websites charge you for their

> apparently indispensible information..methinks

> that greed is not limited to the

> pharmaceuticals..

>

> Open your eyes people!! If I put up a website

> claiming that a fork is a spoon, a cat is a tree

> and a car is a book it doesn't make it fact!!

> Let's see some real evidence for what you are

> saying - not a website put up by AN Other. Facts

> are deduced by careful analysis of a range of

> information, also taking into account any flaws

> there may be in the study, average incidence of

> certain outcomes etc etc.

>

> Antijen et al, are not speaking out. I have taken

> the time to read your links, even to look further

> into them (with worrying consequences) whereas I

> can only assume you have not done the same with my

> evidence. So who is narrow-minded?

>

> I would really urge anybody who is in any doubt to

> resist from making very serious decisions with

> regards their childs health from the information

> provided by holocaust deniers (did I mention the

> Aids deniers also on that site?) Isn't holocaust

> denial a criminal act?

I really didn't want to wade in either because people get so emotional about it. I think immunisations are a wonderful thing and have helped to eradicate some ghastly awful illnesses. However there are issues which need addressing. Firstly the decline is certain diseases is attributed entirely to vaccinations when there are in fact a lot of other improvements in our lifestyles which have helped to reduce the incidence of these terrible illnesses. There is a lot of very well referenced data out there about this and it is important to acknowledge this. It is just as important that poor countries have good drainage, clean water, decent diets as immunisations. However what is also very important is that there is hardly any research on the long term health consequences of a highly immunised society. For example while horrible diseases have virtually disappeared other things have replaced them, terrible allergies, cancer etc. I am not saying that immunisation cause these things. No. But I do think that we should be able to explore the possibility that immunisations could have some negative long term impact on our overall health. If we find out they don't great - if they do then necessary improvements to immunisations can be made or alternatives developed. However there is an immense amount of aggression out there towards anyone who challenges common orthodoxy about immunisations and this all makes doing the necessary research into it very difficult. And I think it needs to be recognised that companies really aren't going to fund research which is going to suggest that there is a problem with any of the products they sell.

Another thing I would like to point out is that while on the whole most people can deal with immunisations there are people whose systems do respond very badly and there are people who have died directly as a result of immunisations - sadly many of them. Perhaps you regard this as a necessary price to pay to have an immunised society. However there are with some vaccines tests which can be done to see if children can handle a particular vaccination or not. I think it would be good if there could be a slightly more individualised approach to vaccination and some recognition that some children's systems will be less able to handle them.

With regards to the Informed Parent Website http://www.informedparent.co.uk/- there is actually a lot of work involved in producing the newsletter - which I used to subscribe to and I did used to pay a very small some of money for it. There was someone there who was collecting together the articles and putting them into an accessible form and I see absolutely nothing wrong in paying a small amount for this.

I think all I would ask for is a slightly more open minded approach toward the question of immunisation so that medical progress and advances can continue. Putting people who dare question the orthodoxy on immunisation into the same bracket as holocaust deniers sort of sums things up.