Saudi Arabia to behead and crucify paedophile...

[Keef]

But if I think all capital punishment is wrong (which I do), how can I not generalise?

This case in particular... If the mental health thing is true, then that has to be taken in to account.

The man's crimes were terrible, but if I decide that it is okay in this case, then why shouldn't it be okay in all cases?

If the child's father gunned this man down, then by their law, he should also be executed. I know that morally he'd have more sympathy (by a million miles), but you either have it or you don't.

For me, it's a no, whatever someone has done.

[Mick Mac]

Ok - on the general point we agree to not be in favour of the death penalty - on this particular case we disagree. You are being consistent, which is fine. In this case I take the circumstances of the crime into account and I have to say I don't mind how they execute him, so long as it is legal, because of the circumstances of the crime. I really don't make any attempt to feel any concern for him, whatever his death is, it seems more humane than the nature of the childs death.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Trying to have your cake and eat it a bit Mick aren't you

keef "being consistent" isn't just "fine" - it's the fabric of a justice system. It's important to not let emotion come into it otherwise where would it end?

If you are against the death penalty, as you say you are, then there isn't any room for manouevre. The Birmingham bombings were certainly digusting enough for many people to not give any consideration for the criminals involved. Just as well they weren't killed tho', right?

[HAL9000]

Keef Wrote:

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> If the mental health thing is true, then that has

> to be taken in to account.

I've done some Googling on this: the mental issue seems to have been raised by Amnesty International (typical) and is based on Saudi reports that the man laughed during his interrogation / confession.

> If the child's father gunned this man down, then

> by their law, he should also be executed.

Sharia Law is largely based on the principle of an eye-for-an-eye. I'm not sure that the avenging father would face any sanction if he acted in accordance with the basic principles of Sharia Law.

Book 34, Number 4481:

Narrated Abu Shurayh al-Khuza'i:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If a relative of anyone is killed, or if he suffers khabl, which means a wound, he may choose one of the three things: he may retaliate, or forgive, or receive compensation. But if he wishes a fourth (i.e. something more), hold his hands. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.

 

[legalbeagle]

HAL9000 - I think it's common for defence lawyers and human rights organisations to raise a mental health question if they possibly can, and I suppose it is right that they should do so if they are going to do their job properly. Who knows in this case whether it really applies - though I question how you could possibly do this to children and be "normal".

Mick Mac - to be fair to OP I think they said that they couldn't identify what it was that made them feel uncomfortable, and I don't read any sympathy for the perpetrator in that post.

[Mick Mac]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> Trying to have your cake and eat it a bit Mick

> aren't you

>

Sean - to put it bluntly, I'm not in favour of the death penalty - Irish issues being one of the reasons. You don't have to educate me on that.

The question I am asking myself is whether this case makes me feel uncomfortable in the same way the OP felt uncomfortable - it does not - is that fair enough.

Keef - when I used the word "fine" is was intended as "good". I accept you are being consistent, I am not.

[As for any defence or sympathy in respect of this man's "mental illness", I think Hal has covered that.]

[Keef]

Sean said it Mick, you're either for or against. If you take the circumstances of the crime in to account in this case, then surely you'd do the same in any case, in which case you're not really against capital punishment for certain crimes.

[Keef]

HAL, interesting point on Sharia law, and you may well be right.

[Mick Mac]

Keef Wrote:

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> Sean said it Mick, you're either for or against.

> If you take the circumstances of the crime in to

> account in this case, then surely you'd do the

> same in any case, in which case you're not really

> against capital punishment for certain crimes.

Very simplistic Keef/Sean.

I'm against it. For all crimes. But I'm not protecting this guy from the laws of his country. Neither do I feel any discomfort about his punishment.

[Keef]

I'm not trying to be askward here, I'm genuinely having trouble with this. So, if it was the same man, in this country, you'd not want him executed? Or is it that you don't WANT him executed. But you're not overly bothered because of what he did? If it's the latter, I can see where you're coming from, but I still can't feel that it's right, so maybe I do have sympathy for him... I just know I think it's wrong in any country, in any circumstance.

[mockney piers]

Plus I don't think keef was muddying the debate by bringing in torture or other means of execution into it.

For many it is about revenge, and the more the suffering the better, though many family memebrs who witness an execution in the states feel little sense of closure or satisfaction at seeng it done.

If they were to use the Shah's favoured method of disposing of political enemies, the sainsburys meat slicer from the feet up, would that elicit some human sympathy at the suffering?

It's valid to ask if it's a matter of degrees before the levels of suffering are too great for the merited degree of punishment, or does the paedophile/murderer/highwayman/drink driver cede all rights to humanity?

[matthew123]

If this 22 yr old guy was not given the death penalty - he might spend the next 60 or 70 years locked up in a Saudi prison subjected to regular beatings. Is the latter really more humane than the execution?

[legalbeagle]

I think to be a society in which I would happily live there would have to be some rights that a human being cannot lose, regardless of what they have done, and a right to life would be one of them. A right to freedom from cruel, unusual or degrading punishment would be another. It is certainly a difficult line to draw. Is a sentence of life meaning life cruel, since it is usual to allow a consideration of parole? A refusal to allow someone out of prison to die? The line has to be drawn, but where to draw it is a very difficult debate. We have seen this recently in the distinction some have tried to make between waterboarding and torture. For me the line comes before torture or death are inflicted, but further away than "life" meaning "ten years". But exactly where, I must confess I don't know.

[Keef]

Quite right, although I imagine someone will come on and say "what about the victim's right to life?" or something equally irrelevant.

[Mick Mac]

Question 1

Are you in favour of the death penalty?

Answer: No

Question 2

Do you feel each country has the right to choose to have the death penalty in their country

Answer: Yes

Question 3

Are you concerned for a person, or does it cause you discomfort, if a person suffers death by beheading for raping and killing a child in a country where at the time of the crime, the death penalty is in place.

Answer: No

Questions 4

If the person in question 3 had committed the same crime in the UK, what would be the appropriate punishment?

Answer: whatever the court decides under English Law

I'm not in favour of the death penalty but where it exists it is what the people of that country understand as the norm and the approrpiate form of justice. We should not seek to feel superior to them by suggesting our way is the right way.

[legalbeagle]

No doubt someone will interpret me as not caring about the victim's right to life, and that couldn't be further from the truth, though as you say it isn't relevant to my point.

It's interesting to see how public opinion shifts on these matters, once the reality of living with them comes to pass. "Let's bomb the terrorists" quickly turns into "what the hell are our soldiers doing out in a desert miles from home" when the death toll of british soldiers starts to rise. The same thing applies here - we knew the Guildford 4, the Birmingham 6 and Colin Stagg were all guilty as hell and should swing, till it turned out they just weren't....

And on a seperate note completely, a good friend of mine, a very skilled advocate, was appalled when he was sent to the US to study the training some of their prosecutors receive to extract confessions. Turns out it is perfectly possible without laying a finger on someone or raising a voice to them, that you can get them to confess to something they simply did not do.

[Mick Mac]

Posted again as a response to Keef's question on previous page:

Question 1

Are you in favour of the death penalty?

Answer: No

Question 2

Do you feel each country has the right to choose to have the death penalty in their country

Answer: Yes

Question 3

Are you concerned for a person, or does it cause you discomfort, if a person suffers death by beheading for raping and killing a child in a country where at the time of the crime, the death penalty is in place.

Answer: No

Questions 4

If the person in question 3 had committed the same crime in the UK, what would be the appropriate punishment?

Answer: whatever the court decides under English Law

I'm not in favour of the death penalty but where it exists it is what the people of that country understand as the norm and the approrpiate form of justice. We should not seek to feel superior to them by suggesting our way is the right way.

[mockney piers]

I don't think it's anything to do with feeling superior.

I guess civilisation itself is a subjective term, but is a society that owns slaves less civilised? I'd say so, is one that endorses state murder, again I'd say yes, is one that tries to take care of it's citizens more civilised than one that leaves them to fend for themselves and indeed mete out the death penalty for petty theft (as we did a mere 250 years ago - and no it wasn't much of a deterrent was it), again I'd say yes.

But perhaps I'm beggng the question being, as I am, a amember of a liberal western society.

No I don't think we have a right to tell other nations how to govern themselves, but I stand by anybody's right to protest for human rights.

But whether I feel superior to a Saudi or an ancient Roman is utterly irrelevant. If you ask your average Saudi whether we have a right to intefere they'll happily tell us to bog off, many, like here, would doubtless aprove of this execution, but I'd be very surprised if anyone said that public execution is the result of a civilising influence.

And matthew, I simply ask you, would you prefer life in prison or death. People will often go to extraordinary lengths to claw just one more minute of life. I'd be careful before you start pontificating about how he's better off.

[legalbeagle]

Mick Mac - I think where your logic falls down for me is when the death penalty is imposed for, let's say, being homosexual. Or for theft. Or for being Jewish. Or for being a political opponent. It's a perfectly legal punishment under the regime in question, but I think we have a right, indeed a duty, to say those things are wrong, irrespective of the country or regime in question. It isn't a question of superiority, it is a question of human rights, which should not change just because of an arbitrarily drawn border.

[mockney piers]

Well said legal, that's very true. People seem happy enough that it's a paedolphile, but rarely are lines anything but grey. Indeed HALs pretty dismissive of the mental issue. Leaving aside Saudi's dubious reputation when it comes to scrutiny of it's policing and judiciary, I'd say anyone who did what they did then laughed when interrogated is almost certainly barking.needs to be remved from society, but executed? As I say whre do you draw this line, a mental affliction merits death, a mental handicap too, a physical one (if that is t be implication Godwinning this debate)?

[Mick Mac]

Legalbeagle - I don't agree with the death penalty for any crime, let alone the ones you mention.

But its not for us to make laws for other countries. I agree with the fight for human rights on most counts and that is a good way to approach inappropriate punishments that you have listed, and this needs to be approached with diplomacy.

But its then up to them to change their own laws. They have to believe.

But I don't feel discomfort for this particular person and his particular crime. Which is what the OP stated she felt.

[legalbeagle]

Mick Mac - we probably agree. I don't believe in invading in order to change the laws of a regime except in the most extreme of circumstances. I'd far rather they made a change through their own choice.

To be fair to the OP, I don't think she said she felt sorry for the perpetrator in this case. She said she felt uncomfortable but she didn't know why.

[matthew123]

>> People will often go to extraordinary lengths to claw just one more minute of life.

Yes Mockney, and others will go to Switzerland to end it such is life. Each individual is different but it strikes me that capital punishment is not a black and white issue, each case is different. As I said up top the Family may prefer to put this man in a torture chamber rather than giving him a quick exit.

>> the death penalty for petty theft (as we did a mere 250 years ago - and no it wasn't much of a deterrent was it)

On what basis do you make that judgement - people react to the law, and how ever diabolical the punishment for stealing the proverbial apple it would have deterred more ppl than if it had been a prison sentence. BTW, I am not condoning that punishment.

[legalbeagle]

"it would have deterred more ppl than if it had been a prison sentence". Based on what evidence? See many above posts as to why this is, at best, a highly dubious claim!

[silverfox]

Keef Wrote:

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> Quite right, although I imagine someone will come

> on and say "what about the victim's right to

> life?" or something equally irrelevant.

Hardly irrelevant Keef, rather one of the primary reasons he's been sentenced to death