Saudi Arabia to behead and crucify paedophile...

[iaineasy]

Unfortunately Keef, life does not mean life. In the UK they do get out - and they do reoffend.

I'm against the death penalty, but for peodophiles, life should mean life. Its the worst crime I can think of. If the saudis want to kill this guy, as he has raped a number of children, I have no sympathy.

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I couldn't agree more.

[matthew123]

I'm not sure it really is revenge Keef - I'd have thought the devastated family, if they were after pure revenge, would have preferred to keep this particular man alive for eternity in a torture chamber.

[SeanMacGabhann]

But it's not about sympathy for the guilty - it's about being better than them

[huncamunca]

an open question

what would the Saudis do to man who married a girl of 6 and had sex with her at the age of 9 ?

[Gimme]

What about people who abduct a young man, take him into the desert, torture him and beat him to death?

Do you think they should be beheaded or crucified too?

[matthew123]

Assuming the young man is as innocent as the children, and the offenders knew and also believed the young man was innocent, and based on the fact it may act as a deterrent - then Yes the applicable capital punishment for that country should be executed.

[iaineasy]

it's about being better than them

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what does that mean? Is our culture better than theirs?They would definatley argue against that and I'm not sure any of us are qualified to say what's better.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Them = criminals ian. Not other countries or cultures

[matthew123]

Well Sean if it simply a case of being better than them how would you deal with that European guy who locked up a young girl all those years and provided her with a tiny room, wash basin, bunk bed, hot meals, small TV, limited conversation etc (i.e. kept her a prisoner)...

[iaineasy]

oh okay. fair enough

[SeanMacGabhann]

@ Mat

Pretty much the same way as it has been handled - tried, guilty, will die in prison and kept from ever doing the same again

[SeanMacGabhann]

Interestingly, Texas, the hardcore kill-'em state, is having second thoughts about the whole thing too

oops

Some people seem to have a worrying ability to describe and dwell on the details of horrific crimes. Or worse, they can conjure up a disgusting one as an argument for the death penalty. And they then condone the buthering and slaughtering of other people

That makes them sound like people I would avoid just as much as the next murderer

[Mick Mac]

localgirlwithdreads Wrote:

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> I agree with Mockney that it does not necessarily

> deter. It does seem very extreme and I'm not so

> thrilled about the idea of them being so savage

> about it. However, it seems like quite a nice

> change from the typical UK system where

> paedophiles don't necessarily even get jailed at

> all and they invariably get relatively lenient

> sentences. If a serial shoplifter goes to jail,

> gets released and shoplifts his little heart out

> again and again and again, it's not a great result

> but it is most certainly not the end of the world.

> But paedophiles raping little kids - we simply

> can't play around when it comes to that. It has

> to be prevented. At any cost, I guess.

Absolutely. Well put.

[Mick Mac]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> >

> But it's not about sympathy for the guilty - it's

> about being better than them

And neither is it about who has the moral high ground sean. In this case its more important than theory and principle, its about protecting children from rape and death.

[matthew123]

Texas is having doubts on death row because there are doubts about convictions - that is completely different to whether it is warranted or not for particular crimes (i.e. the purpose of this thread).

[legalbeagle]

Mick Mac - just for the record, absent any mental illness, I have no sympathy for this guy either. Nor do I have any illusions about how horrific his crimes were, nor how appalling it would be to live with the knowledge of that happening to my child. But I still think that the death penalty is wrong, ineffective as a deterrent, expensive and an act of legalised barbarism and revenge that debases society as a whole.

Life should mean life. That's the sensible alternative - it has all of the benefits of capital punishment and none of the negatives.

[Mick Mac]

I agree Legal - I also don't agree with the death penalty, but neither do I have any sympathy for peadophiles and they are subject to whatever law applies to the crime in the country where they commit their crime.

But it surprises me for someone to say the death of a paedophile makes them feel "uncomfortable". It seems sympathetic to me. The sympathy should be wholly with the victim in this case.

Its not necessarily revenge - you would have to ask the people who make the laws in the relevant country why they apply that punishment to determine whether it is revenge or not.

[Alabama]

It's the method of punishment that makes me feel 'uncomfortable'. It is not the actual crimes that I'm referring to, the crimes are absolutely abhorrant and despicable - but the issue I was putting forward for discussion was that of the death penalty for criminals together with the public nature and 'crucifixtion' aspect of it. I am not sympathising with a paedophile, please do not infer that from my post.

Life should indeed mean life and if it did, maybe that would be the effective deterrent.

edited for spelling and clarity.

[HAL9000]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> This murderer is being sedated (if Hal is correct)

> and beheaded

Officially, the Saudi authorities deny sedation for beheadings and amputations (to enhance the deterrent effect and because intoxicants are forbidden by Islam).

In fact, for beheadings, it is used to a varying extent depending on the condemned's likely level of co-operation, without which it would be all but impossible to carry out such a sentence in a humane and orderly fashion.

In the case of amputations, the authorities claim full amputation by sword followed by medical treatment, although they do acknowledge the administration of local anaesthetic.

In fact, most of the time (always in the case of nationals), the executioner applies a ritual strike to the limb that merely breaks the skin - the condemned is then taken to a nearby hospital where a proper surgical amputation is carried out leaving a neat, skin-covered stump.

Apart from official executions, various members of the Royal family and the ruling hierarchy have the authority to perform summary executions and punishments (in fact, Islam gives that authority to every Muslim) where the evidence warrants it ? in such cases the punishments are administered on the spot without any thought to sedation or medical intervention. Such events are quite rare, though.

[Keef]

But it surprises me for someone to say the death of a paedophile makes them feel "uncomfortable". It seems sympathetic to me. The sympathy should be wholly with the victim in this case.

What bloody nonsense! It is not sympathetic, it is discomfort over ANY human being slaughtered by the state.

LegalBeagle's last post was spot on IMO.

[Mick Mac]

As I say - it does not bother me how this man dies - to feel any discomfort for him, implies you care about him sufficiently to be concerned about how he dies, either his death, the barbaric nature of it or the public nature of it. To quote the OP: "So, what is the issue? the death penalty? the method chosen? the public aspect?"

The thread was in direct reference to this particular indivividual and began with the OP saying the death made her feel uncomfotable.

I feel no discomfort for him.

I do not agree with the death penalty nor do I agree with punishments applied in the middle east for lesser crimes. That's a different debate.

But in terms of this individual, his crime and his punishment - I does not make me feel uncomfortable. I can easily not concern myself with him and his plight. I have no time for him and no sympathy for how he dies.

I would argue that any discomfort comes from people being overly concerned for people who do not deserve our concern. He is suffering the appropriate penalty for the crime as dictated by that state.

if your discomfort is in respect of the death penalty in general the the OP should not have referred to a particular case.

[Keef]

So, would you feel that way if they were going to torture him for a day before finishing him off? Serious question.

[Mick Mac]

It may be a serious question buts its hypothetical Keef - its clouds a debate about a real person committing a real crime and suffering a real and legal death sentence. What we are debating is a real punishment which is legal in the country in which it takes place and whether this mans death should cause discomfort. (and then whether that discomfort implies any sympathy for the rapist/child murderer).

[Keef]

Sorry Mick, but you are the one who has jumped from SA to UK and back, that is clouding the argument. I asked the question, because you say you have no sympathy with this man, whatever they do to him, I wanted to see if that stretched to torture, or just taking his head off then sticking him up on a pole, to deter other people from repeating his crimes (not that it stands even the slightest chance of convincing someone who would be willing to rape a child that maybe they shouldn't).

Okay, I have said I think it is revenge, and I stand by that. If the father of the child had hunted this man down, and put a bullet in his head, I could actually understand that, and probably wouldn't be able to condemn the guy. If someone hurt my daughter, I honestly don't know what I'd do, but I can't put my hand on my heart and say I wouldn't want to kill them.

So, there is no need for you to keep on pointing out just how nasty a crime was commited. I think what happened to that boy, and other boys, was every bit as horrid as you do. However, I still do not feel that a state, whatever state it may be, should be taking a person's life away, whatever the crime.

You keep saying that you're against capital punishment, but then sound very much for it in this case, so which is it?

[Mick Mac]

Keef

I am against capital punishment in general and would vote against it if there was a referendum in this country. I don't get the chance to vote in SA, so can't influence that.

The OP made reference to a specific case and the discomfort felt by the OP about the manner of this man's death - therefore my responses are based upon the specific case and what this man is being subjected to in return for his specific crime.

The debate is not therefore about capital punishment in general. My feelings on that remain unaltered. I don't agree with it in general but I have no discomfort for what is happening to this man in return for his crime.

Can you explain your discomfort, in relation to this man's particular circumstances and knowledge of his crime, without implying (my deduction) that you are being sympathetic or concerned about him. And without generalising the argument and just saying that you think all capital punishment is wrong.