Saudi Arabia to behead and crucify paedophile...

[Keef]

I don't think that most people who would sexually assault a child, will really give a second thought to the punishment. If anything, they'd be more likely to try and "dispose" of any evidence. I'll say it again, it's nothing more than revenge, stop calling it justice.

[localgirlwithdreads]

An extreme but entirely necessary punishment.

[legalbeagle]

Lots of different views, which is fair enough. But for the record, it has been shown time and again that capital punishment does not work as a deterrent. The US is a very good example. Plenty of states execute people, as Virginia did this week, but they have one of the highest murder rates in the world.

[matthew123]

Well Keef you could use the same logic for just about any other set of criminals - but I actually think that someone is going to think twice before they carry out they kiddie fiddling with the thought of now having their head cut off in public. For instance has Gary Glitter been seen sunning himself in Saudi recently... no of course not he goes to the Far East where he did believe it would just be a slap on the wrists if he was caught. That is the logic. Revenge / justice what ever you call it is not the key issue - stiffer the sentence the greater the deterrent for all crimes.

[mockney piers]

Your one fallback matthew seems to be the deterrence value, but it simply isnt.

For instance murder, if you're rational you won't do it, if you do it cold bloodedly its because you think you'll get away with it and if it's passion, drug psychosis or mental illness then, well you can guess the rest yourself.

Deterrence is 6 points on your licence and losing your job as a rep. Capital punishment has been proved time and again to have little or no deterrent value.

If you just think the man should die because what he did was horrible and wrong or even evil then I totally understand where you're coming from (though I'm always opposed to state sponsored murder full stop on principle) but give the deterrence thing a rest.

[localgirlwithdreads]

I agree with Mockney that it does not necessarily deter. It does seem very extreme and I'm not so thrilled about the idea of them being so savage about it. However, it seems like quite a nice change from the typical UK system where paedophiles don't necessarily even get jailed at all and they invariably get relatively lenient sentences. If a serial shoplifter goes to jail, gets released and shoplifts his little heart out again and again and again, it's not a great result but it is most certainly not the end of the world. But paedophiles raping little kids - we simply can't play around when it comes to that. It has to be prevented. At any cost, I guess.

[huncamunca]

(td)

[DaveR]

"the typical UK system where paedophiles don't necessarily even get jailed at all and they invariably get relatively lenient sentences"

I don't think this is true, particularly since the introduction of indeterminate sentences. This perception may be caused by the tendency of newspapers to report the minimum term that must be served before parole is considered, without highlighting that the vast majority will serve far longer than that.

[iaineasy]

"the typical UK system where paedophiles don't necessarily even get jailed at all and they invariably get relatively lenient sentences"

I think this is very true and whilst I also agree that the papers usually report the minimum term an offender could face, the fact is although some do go on to serve longer, many don't and under current regulation only half the a sentence is served automatically. In my opinion sentences are way to leniant for this crime that can effect victims for life and indeed lead them into crime caused by the trauma of the offence.

Capital punishment in the form of beheading and crucifixtion is a detterant, but its not acceptable in OUR culture, can we really comment on whether its acceptable or effective over in Saudi Arabia?

[legalbeagle]

But the point many are making - and they are right - it that it isn't an effective deterrent.

[iaineasy]

we can't really know that without living in SA can we?? I would be genuinely interested in seeing some figures from there on the offending rates although I suppose they would only indicate the rate of detection.

[legalbeagle]

Iain - I'm not sure that Saudi Arabia are that forthcoming with statistical analysis of their criminal justice system so it would be difficult to debate that particular regime with full knowledge of the facts. However it is possible to review places like the the US and demonstrate that capital punishment does not provide a deterrent. It is also possible to demonstrate in other places, like parts of the Carribean. I don't have any of the studies to hand now but read quite a lot when I was practising and studying law.

It has been widely accepted by the legal profession and some governments (of the western world) for a while that capital punishment doesnt work as a deterrent. It would be interesting to see a true analysis of places like Saudi or China but I've never read one - perhaps another forumite will have done or will have more up to date information than I do?

[localgirlwithdreads]

I'd have thougght that an individual willing to rape and murder children may be too "far gone" to even think about what punishment he'll get when he's caught. Surely if child rape and murder is what you do for kicks, you're not that rational, balanced etc in the first place?

[HAL9000]

Criminality in Saudi covers many activities that are legal elsewhere: for example, wearing a cross in public, the consumption of non-medicinal alcohol or pork products, the possession of non-Muslim religious texts, videos of any unauthorised material, un-expurgated western glossy magazines, private satellite dishes, insurance policies, interest bearing securities, revealing bare flesh in public, eating or drinking anything during daylight hours in the month of Ramadan, women drivers, homosexuality (both sexes), apostasy, failure to pray at prescribed times, etc, etc.

My last visit to Saudi was in the early eighties. The death penalty for Muslim-to-Muslim alcohol supply was first declared while I was there. At that time the Saudi customs service was battling large-scale smuggling of alcohol and other prohibited items such as narcotics/stimulants, pornography, foreign prostitutes, western videos, weapons, etc. The criminal police force was swamped by crimes of theft and violence by foreign workers (including a case of cannibalism). The local newspapers were full of wanted notices for foreign workers who had disappeared from their jobs, usually with large sums of money.

Amongst Saudi nationals, the crime rate appeared much lower: mainly domestic or interpersonal violence, crimes of passion or honour, homosexuality, adultery or fornication and some alcohol and drug related offences. Deaths caused by road traffic accidents were said to be amongst the highest in the world.

I'll leave it to the reader to decide whether the world's strictest implementation of Sharia Law acted as an effective deterrent.

[Keef]

localgirlwithdreads Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'd have thougght that an individual willing to

> rape and murder children may be too "far gone" to

> even think about what punishment he'll get when

> he's caught. Surely if child rape and murder is

> what you do for kicks, you're not that rational,

> balanced etc in the first place?

Exactly!

[matthew123]

Good point Hal - no argument about that

[SeanMacGabhann]

So homosexuality is bracketed with domestic violence? Nice place to live huh?

Matt - straight up, do you want Saudi levels of repression just to get the crime rate down a bit more in the UK?

[matthew123]

I'm not advocating the introduction of Saudi Arabian law into this country as much of it seems to be corrupt, i.e. buying off victims. I just find it surprising people don't consider the barbaric act of chopping someone's head off in public (for this type of Saudi crime) not to be more of a deterrent than a prison sentence.

The only studies worth the paper they are written on are those with crime statistics since the introduction of draconian punishments, and it seems from Hal's post that it has been a success in at least other types of crimes.

[Gimme]

Criminologists seem to think that sentences are not much of a deterrent if there's not much chance of getting caught. If there's a high chance of getting caught then people start worrying about the punishment. Unfortunately certain crimes in Britain seem to have a low detection or conviction rate and therefore it doesn't matter what the sentence is. And there's some crimes which people commit because they aren't thinking of the sentence when committing them (e.g. a lot of murders are like this).

So, sentences of crucifiction and beheading are probably only an effective deterrent if there's a high chance of getting caught. They are probably more of a statement of revenge against the transgressor than anything else.

I would say that you would have to do something pretty bad for your crime to be more morally repulsive than the act of beheading or crucifying someone.

[red devil]

What happens when someone is found guilty, is then subsequently butchered/murdered by the state, and is then later found to be completely innocent?...

[legalbeagle]

Which has just happened in the US I believe. The answer is they apologise profusely and compensate the family.

[mockney piers]

But let's face it, they'll never commit any crimes will they.

That's what I call effective justice.

[Mick Mac]

This makes me feel uncomfortable

Sometimes to understand these punishments we should perhaps try to picture the crime that has taken place.

Picture a 3 year old child being raped.

The victim here is receiving a much more humane death than than he inflicted on a toddler who was raped and left to die in the desert. This boy was 3 years old when he died. His rape screams were heard by noone - no doubt suffering post trauma stress, he was then left to die of thirst in the desert - his family will never recover, they have a life sentence of grief.

Anyone who has a 3 year old child would not be able to contemplate such a horrible thing happening to an innocent child.

This murderer is being sedated (if Hal is correct) and beheaded - he does not have any sympathy from me. I'd rather he was jailed for life, I don't agree with the death penalty, but it is a quicker death than the slow death he has inflicted on this innocent toddler.

In the UK we distance ourselves from the crime and look at the punishment in terms of a legal debate taking place in a cosy courtroom or a cosy forum. This puts the criminal at an advantage as the crimes are so far from peoples mindset that we do not try to engage our minds in what horrors may have happened.

This sword will stop other toddlers being raped and killed. Picture a child being raped, you are there and you hold the sword. Do you give this guy another chance. Most people will kill him to save the child. The executioner is saving other children.

In the UK the same crime is treated as an illness and often these people are "treated" and released into society. Some commit the same crimes again. This "makes me feel uncomfortable". But I feel no discomfort for the man who committed this crime and his fate.

[Keef]

This sword will stop other toddlers being raped and killed.

This bloke will never be able to do that to another kid if he spent his life in prison. I say again, it is pure revenge.

[Mick Mac]

Unfortunately Keef, life does not mean life. In the UK they do get out - and they do reoffend.

I'm against the death penalty, but for peodophiles, life should mean life. Its the worst crime I can think of. If the saudis want to kill this guy, as he has raped a number of children, I have no sympathy.