Is the N-word necessarily racist?

[silverfox]

localgirlwithdreads, your argument seems to be the word is racist but not if black people use it.

You haven't addressed some of the other points I've raised.

[localgirlwithdreads]

silverfox Wrote:

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> localgirlwithdreads, your argument seems to be the

> word is racist but not if black people use it.

>

> You haven't addressed some of the other points

> I've raised.

Which points?

[matthew123]

matthew123 Wrote:

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> As like many nouns it's usage has changed over the

> years, and in Britain, imo, it is racist

> regardless of who is using the word. You should be

> equally as outraged hearing the term blind as you

> are to discovering it's being used by a Black man.

> Same applies to all derogatory terms.

Maybe what I said was not clear. 'hearing the term blind' as in, you hear the N-word but not who has said it - i.e. your disgust at hearing the N-word should not differ on turning your head and now seeing the culprit was Black rather than White.

Another point is, does a White child on hearing the N-word being used liberally take into account it's only legitimate usage is by Black people or does he/she think it is also fair for them to use and thus keep the whole racist term alive for another generation.

[Moos]

matthew123 Wrote:

> Maybe what I said was not clear. 'hearing the term

> blind' as in, you hear the N-word but not who has

> said it - i.e. your disgust at hearing the N-word

> should not differ on turning your head and now

> seeing the culprit was Black rather than White.

Not sure I agree with this, Matthew. I think posters have generally already made the point that it's impossible for a non-black person disingenuously to use the word without being aware that it is an accepted racist term. I can't imagine any situation (Christmas eve, stomping on head, 4.30-4.48.........) when it's OK.

LGWD has already said (again, amazing that it needs saying!) that it's very common for black people to use the Nword casually, especially in America but also here. So you perhaps can't assume that it isn't racist, but you shouldn't assume it is.

I don't have a problem at all (unlike LGWD) with the topic being discussed, but I do wonder whether some posters are being a bit single-minded by insisting on 'one rule for all'. It's just not that simple.

[matthew123]

It's a disgusting racist term - that is not okay to use by anyone. I'd be appalled at hearing it from whoever said it - White, Indian, Black. Keeping it alive liberally will lead to mis-use & mis-interpretation. To eradicate racism you cannot have half baked rules - and yes it is one rule for all otherwise we have even more hypocracy.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I don't think you get to make the rules on this one matthew

see also: Queer, Paddy etc

[Ladymuck]

localgirlwithdreads Wrote:

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> To add to the disgusting, racist tone of this

> thread the OP has written "nigger" when he could

> easily have just used "the N-word." To be honest,

> my immediate take on this is that we have a white

> racist getting off on being able to use the N-word

> and claiming it is all in the interests of

> intellectual debate.

>

> As I am sure we all know, when black Americans use

> the word in an informal way it is always "nigga"

> and not "nigger."

>

> I know plenty of women who are friends, who might

> say to one another, in a playful, irreverant way:

> "how are you you old slag" or "bitch, what are you

> up to?" That does not mean it would be OK for

> some male to go up to a woman and randomly say,

> "What's up, bitch?"

>

> The sentiment is the same with the N-word and you

> know this very well.

>

> As I've already said, this thread is absolutely

> disgusting.

*stands up and applauds* - go girl go!

[Ladymuck]

matthew123 Wrote:

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> It's a disgusting racist term - that is not okay

> to use by anyone. I'd be appalled at hearing it

> from whoever said it - White, Indian, Black.

> Keeping it alive liberally will lead to mis-use &

> mis-interpretation. To eradicate racism you cannot

> have half baked rules - and yes it is one rule for

> all otherwise we have even more hypocracy.

*another round of applause* - go Matthew go!

[SeanMacGabhann]

so, Matthew and LadyMuck, Chris Rock was being offensive and racist with that routine was he?

[Ladymuck]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> so, Matthew and LadyMuck, Chris Rock was being

> offensive and racist with that routine was he?

Why do you ask that Sean?

[SeanMacGabhann]

because you applauded matthew saying:

"It's a disgusting racist term - that is not okay

> to use by anyone. I'd be appalled at hearing it

> from whoever said it - White, Indian, Black.

> Keeping it alive liberally will lead to mis-use &

> mis-interpretation. To eradicate racism you cannot

> have half baked rules - and yes it is one rule for

> all otherwise we have even more hypocracy.

"

Which pretty much damns CR

[Ladymuck]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> because you applauded matthew saying:

>

> "It's a disgusting racist term - that is not okay

>

> > to use by anyone. I'd be appalled at hearing it

>

> > from whoever said it - White, Indian, Black.

> > Keeping it alive liberally will lead to mis-use

> &

> > mis-interpretation. To eradicate racism you

> cannot

> > have half baked rules - and yes it is one rule

> for

> > all otherwise we have even more hypocracy.

> "

>

> Which pretty much damns CR

*checks through evidence*

Nope, can't see any reference to CR in Matthew's statement.

*closes file*

[SeanMacGabhann]

Oh I seeee now - you haven't seen the Chris Rock clip I'm referring to? It's the first reply to the OP

(but you could pick any number of his routines to be fair)

Matthew's statement is very clear about "anyone", hence me including Chris Rock

Basically, I'm disagreeing with Matthew's statement

And I'm glad you're not my lawyer

[matthew123]

I've not said everyone who uses the N-word is trying to be racist (even though I find it's use pretty disgusting as a joke) - my issue is that keeping it alive will lead to continued problems. What purpose does that CR (or even let us imagine Bernand Manning) routine serve. None.

[SeanMacGabhann]

really? you don't think it's funny at all?

Sheesh, tough crowd

I think it's smart, has a point, makes it well, and is funny

So the old argument about words, where they get their power from, and reclaiming that power cuts no ice with you?

The word doesn't have any intrinsic power - it's the fact that white masters were able to throw it at slaves and the underclass. That's why white people shouldn't use it - it has resonance.

Liek I said, same goes for Paddies - I won't stand for any BNP eeejit calling me that, but if Mick Mac or Declan want to call me that that's just fine. That's OUR right - it's unabiguous and holds no power then. If someone I know who is English says it in jest I'll let it slide, but if someone I don't know uses it, then it had better be bet at 4:28am inthe morning and you have just been mugged by an Irishman...

[Ladymuck]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> Oh I seeee now - you haven't seen the Chris Rock

> clip I'm referring to? It's the first reply to the

> OP

>

> (but you could pick any number of his routines to

> be fair)

>

> Matthew's statement is very clear about "anyone",

> hence me including Chris Rock

>

> Basically, I'm disagreeing with Matthew's

> statement

>

> And I'm glad you're not my lawyer

*shows Mr. SeanMacGabhann the door*

Who's next please?

[matthew123]

For me Chris Rock is the equivalent of Jim Davidson in that he has to rely on a foul mouthed tongue for his humour

Do you really think the N-word being reclaimed is not going to lead to mis-use and mis-interpretation - it's very dangerous ground in my view

[localgirlwithdreads]

I heard a group of Chinese youths calling each other the N-word the other day.

[Huguenot]

Never heard it out here - maybe it's the 'Commitments' effect?

[localgirlwithdreads]

Personally I think Chris Rock is a brilliant comedian. Obviously he is regarded as pretty controversial by many though. Also, Chris Rock, as a black man, using the N-word in a routine is one thing. A white person using the term about a black man is an entirely different thing.

I have a white, male cousin who grew up on a council estate (still lives on one) and he sometimes makes fun of what he calls 'poor white trash' who live on his estate. His comments are also self-deprecating and I don't find it racist. However, if a black person began sniggering at white council estate dwellers and calling them 'poor white trash' it would definitely be racist and taboo.

[localgirlwithdreads]

I've heard men greet each other with, "oi, you c-u-n-t." As a term of near-endearment. Were they to approach a stranger and say "oi, you c-u-n-t" it would clearly have a very different tinge

[boswell]

I essentially agree with SeanMacGabhann here. Language has always been used as a way of producing and maintaining meaning by certain groups (in their favour) and often as a legitimating tool to justify the poor and unequal treatment and status of minority groups. Therefore, because this word was used in the past by the white community as a derogatory term, and potentially it could be argued as a means of maintaining unequal power relations, it is an unacceptable and racist term for them to use now.

However, taking over a previously derogatory term used against yourself can be a means of empowerment. For example, I think I'm right in saying that in the disability movement some people reject the term 'the disabled' as a derogatory category whilst others are now embracing it themselves in order to reject the negative representation of it by others and turn it into a positive identity.

Therefore a black person using the word in a non-derogatory way isn't racist, however I might argue that them using it in a derogatory way is because it then re-inforces previous issues of power and discrimination etc.

Edited to say: Think this sounds a bit wanky on re-reading but it's been a long day at work and I'm very tired and can't be arsed to change it.

[Y'man]

I came home from Thailand one time, back in 1980, my bags were throughly searched by HM's men in black & white. they found a tube of toothpaste named 'Darkie Boy', it's logo was a picture of a negro wearing a top hat. HM's lads, not finding anything they might arrest me for, confiscated it on the grounds that it might be construed, by some, as racist. That was the first time I came up against this ridiculous, politically retarded mindset. It has only got worse since then.

[GSJ57]

Customs did the right thing in my opinion ...... can this thread pease go away now.

[SeanMacGabhann]

why would anyone BUY "toothpaste named 'Darkie Boy', it's logo was a picture of a negro wearing a top hat. "

And why is it a "ridiculous, politically retarded mindset. " to see that it's all kinds of wrong?